"Physically Ill"

Just as cruelty to animals can fester into cruelty against people, so can kindness and empathy towards animals mature into kindness and empathy for humans. Making the world a better place for everybody to live demands that we address small abominations as well as large ones. If we catch the kids who get off on torturing puppies and kittens, maybe they won't grow up to be adults who get off on torturing 'detainees'.

Most of the dreadful things in the world don't happen just because we voted a certain way. The things that do are a bit more our concern, don't you think?
If only because by changing our vote we could stop those particular things happening any more, or again.

Mind you, if you were referring to Iraq under Saddam, maybe you are right. A lot of that did happen because of the way we voted in the past. Saddam was chosen, supported, financed and armed by the US (including the poison gas), so I guess we should include all his persecution of his citizens in the same list of voters responsibility.

But voters were misled and uninformed that time as this. The important thing is to get informed and put a stop to government aggression now, from this point on. Not to wallow in guilt and regret.

We're fighting against an enemy that hides in the population and wears no uniform. We're fighting against an enemy that doesnt mind blowing up their own people. I say we've spent alot of money on technology to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible. But given the circumstances, things will happen no matter how careful you plan.

Saddam was a monster long before he ever met with the CIA. Saddam 'earned' his way up the ladder long before he ever met with the CIA. He was evil and in power BEFORE all of this. We didnt create him. We didnt vote him in.

Ellie, maybe you can explain something to me. Are we not allowed to be outraged at one instance of horrible behavior unless we have proof that we are outraged at all horrible behavior? Am I somehow not allowed to be offended by the sick cruelty those bastards inflicted on helpless animals unless I have your prior approval? We are, or rather were, talking about a group of sick people that tortured animals for fun. Why does it have to be about war? How does my opinion and actions towards those boneheads in Washington have anything to do with the subject at hand?


Wow. I had no idea that the billions of other people in the world were that unimportant and inneffectual in the grand scheme of things. Thanks for setting me straight on that, Ellie. I was under the apparently mistaken impression that what the people in other countries did actually mattered.

Very nicely said! Sometimes the small things are the ones you can act upon and stop. And if enough folks grow enraged about the small acts of cruelty, they will begin to feel like they can take action against the large ones.

The only reason they can hide so easily in the population is that the majority are in their own country, not ours. Strangely, we are in theirs, not ours, too.

I'm sure, if the positions were reversed, they would try just as hard, as they invaded our country with their high technology(claiming to bring us freedom from Bush and the oil barons) not to kill our little children. But we'd still get just a teensy bit angry, don't you think? Become implacable enemies of the invaders? Take pot shots, "hiding in the population".

Or maybe you buy the propaganda that they are like vicious animals, and revel in killing babies ? Eating them perhaps?

If only, Chris, you could take that one giant leap, and glimpse the situation from the others point of view. The ability to do it is what makes us civilised, in my humble opinion.

I'm glad you stood up to those boys, David. It may have helped change them more than you know.

coco

Sadly, Ursula, I think its true. No-one has more effect upon the future safety of the children of the world than the American voter.

Not only because of the deadly combination of a massive advantage in the technology of warfare, and an unscrupulous government willing to manipulate its population into supporting agressive wars using even outright lies.

But worse. Doubtless you will be pleased to learn that technology is in the pipeline to allow the military to kill anyone (unless in a hugely strong bunker), anywhere in the world. Death will come silently from space, any time, with no warning, and not a single one of our brave boys will risk his life, sitting safe and sound at a remote console in his home state.

Provided the US can get enough stuff up there first (and they will), the plan is to be able to destroy any attempt by anyone else to put anything up alongside, so there will be a total monopoly in holding the world to ransom.

The international agreements everyone signed not to use space for offensive weaponry are completely forgotten.

So you see, whether the US government adopts aggressive policies involving pre-emptivestrikes on others, telling lies and scaremongering at home to quieten dissent - or whether it becomes a good and honest citizen of the world, is indeed critical to the inhabitants of the whole planet.

Only the US voter has any say in the direction it all takes.

I wish it wasn't true but it is.

I shouldn't have said that. I have no right to make such an assumption without you having given me any evidence, Ursula. I regret it, it was unfair, and I apologise.

I guess it is only Chris that is directly expressing the views I am seeking to oppose. And yes, of course this torture of small animals is shocking, and we should act against it if we can. I think it was the extreme language of the threadstarter, about being "physically ill" that struck me so forcibly as contrasting with the apparent acceptance that all the childrens deaths in Iraq were somehow something we just had to accept, without feeling anything even slightly as strong as "physically ill". Like Madeleine Allbright on camera saying that the deaths of 500,000 children from sanctions had been "worth it". I don't feel physically ill. I see red.

Its been a while since I checked the sources on this, Chris. I think I'd better have another look at the timing here, see which of us is right. I certainly don't want to debate on the basis of something I may have misremembered. I'll check.

I'm glad you apologized for that. I was ready to get indignant. Could you answer the first part of my post, though? You completely ignored that part. I just want to know why you insist on making this about the war, when it was about something completely unrelated. The reason I haven't given you any evidence about how I feel about the issue you keep bring up is that it is not the issue at hand.

Thank you Ursula. My paragraph above was meant to be my answer to that. But to be even more specific, I tend to think my introduction of the war was on topic, for the following reasons :

When I see someone discussing one specific incident about which they feel concern, I look to see what more general class of incidents it represents, and what wider principles it illuminates. I think this gives more depth to the discussion, and more context to the incident. I think most people posting about specific incidents intend them to be regarded as examples of wider issues, rather than simply as incidents in themselves. I'd be surprised if Cid didn't have a similar intention, though perhaps not as wide as I took it. But hey, that's why its called a discussion.

I have long been concerned that many human problems stem from our ability to be proud of, and even perhaps to flaunt, our caring natures, whilst being incredibly selective, or even irrational and hypocritical, in what we choose to express concern about. The "tiny animals killed by others" are worth more concern than "children killed by our own votes" is an extreme version of this failing. Didn't Hitler love cats?

Also, I think there are strong and interesting parallels between the minds of the small animal torturers, and those of a few of our soldiers. And we should be asking questions about whether witnessing or participating in the animal torture (probably at the gang leaders insistence initially) can grow a taste for it, and whether we as a nation are causing similar damage inside our soldiers heads. Many came back from Vietnam very sorely disturbed, and received little help from the authorities. This may happen again with Iraq if it drags on. So there is another wider war-related issue which I would claim is bang on topic.

Someone could easily have taken the discussion on to the "meat-eating versus vegetarianism" thing, and I think that would have been permissible and sufficiently on topic too.

But, of course, I should not have assumed that you were not as concerned as I am, to try to prevent there being any more of this blood on our governments hands. Unlike Chris who I think stated that he accepted its necessity. I don't.

Hope thats a more direct and comprehensive answer, whether you agree with it or not.

It's already happening. Cases of post-traumatic stress disorder are occuring all-too-frequently with Iraq veterans.

To tie in with the topic, the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder parallel what we see in cases where pets have been abused by their owners. War is cruel not only to the civilians caught in the crossfire, but to the warriors as well.

And if there really is anybody out there who is only outraged by cruelty to animals, not humans (ignoring the biological fact that humans ARE animals), well, I would remind them that Iraqis have pets too. Imagine the chaos of war through their eyes.

Necessity? Nah. Unavoidable? Yes. I guess people arnt happy with accidental blood on our hands and would sleep better with the murderous blood on Saddams hands.

China routinely imprisons and tortures its own people in numbers that make Saddam look like a rank amateur. They have stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction... real ones, not figments of Rumsfeldt's fevered imagination. Yet, not only are we not invading them, we give them Most Favored trading status year after year.

People have strange sleeping habits indeed.

well well well...first..the issue of animal cruelty
teach our children that this is not OUR planet..we are merely borrowing it and have responsibility for the nurturing and safety of ALL that live upon it
A child that has that much hostility obviously needs counseling..or a good spanking a long time ago
The war in iraq...we put Saddam there during the first war..humans make mistakes..be sure to think globally and act locally..
by the way..funding for a Gulf War memorial to be built in NC (design has been approved) is underway..if youd like to see a mock up drop me a line (just because i disagree with the war doesn't mean I don't appreciate the supreme sacrifices that our brothers made while doing what they thought in their hearts was the right thing)
War is not new..nor violence nor hatred..good exists with bad,...all we can do is help each other be better humans than those in the past and try to learn from our mistakes..
much love to all in SL and out in RL

Of course Iraq didn't have much of an army, they have ALOT of oil, and it was easy for Bush, Cheney, Rove and Rumsfield to plant the suggestion in the very suggestible public's minds that 9/11 and Iraq were tied together.

It's sad how many folks still confuse 9/11 with Iraq. I hear it all the time. Our fascist government is full of classic scare tactics, misinformation and corporate goals these days. They are in it for money and power. We didn't go to Iraq to save the Iraqi people. We went to make some folks rich. To think otherwise is niave.

If you read between your own lines, you answered your own questions.

Ellie, you've explained why you have derailed the topic quite well. However, you still haven't answered my question. I'll quote it here.
Please... explain to me why we aren't allowed to be outraged at such cruelty unless you think we have somehow earned the right.

What I don't get is how we could think this thread *wouldn't* degenerate somehow. I mean, c'mon: "Helpless Little Furry Things Doused WIth Lighter Fluid And Set On Fire...Discuss!" Were we expecting someone to chime in and say, "Hell, yes, Live Critter Roasting's the funniest thing I've seen since Pauly Shore!!!"

Phppppppppppt. This is a topic that's *begging* to be trolled.

"Helpless Little Furry Things Doused WIth Lighter Fluid And Set On Fire...Discuss!"

lol, Liona! I mean, it's not funny, but you're right - not much to discuss about it, really, except commiserate with each other. I guess that helps to deal with this sort of thing a little.

coco

Thanks for the update, Cid. I blame the parents. I know I shouldn't, but come on! This wasn't just one nutcase doing his perverted thing in his twisted loner world. This was three boys, friends who look alike even, who at 19 have probably hung out together for quite some time.

Yet these three can do this together. I can't help it; I just gotta presume their parents were probably pretty much awol physically and emotionally for some years prior. Or worse, just didn't have the morality themselves to teach that something like this is wrong in the first place.

coco