House votes to repeal part of USA Patriot Act

Garoad,

Even without abuses, there is a choice to be made:

Are the sacrifices for your civil liberties worth the increase in minor convictions that are deemed "terror related" only because the Patriot Act says they are?

The answer is a simple no.

When it comes to real security, investigation after investigation is showing that America is not significantly safer than it was September 10, 2001.

Now, we look the 9/11 Commission's findings... where are the Congressmen in that committee overwhelmingly recommending extending the Patriot Act? They simply aren't. Their recommendations was to overhaul the intelligence community to be doing the job that they should have been doing in the first place - catching known terrorists before they strike.

The fact is that the 9/11 conspirators were all known terrorists / illegal aliens. Had our intelligence and justice community been able to properly deal with them in the first place, we would not have had 9/11. What would not have stopped 9/11 are things like library book traces and searches without warrants that the so-called Patriot Act provides.

I'm not as certain as you are about whether the library related section wouldn't have helped--the 9/11 assholes did use public libraries. Of course, any terrorist using them in the same way now would have to be an idiot. That section may be one that should be repealed. And there's other sections that need to be clarified or perhaps repealed. But the entire act? Not at all--there are far too many important things that it does to say that the entire thing should just be thrown away. I don't think that even the ACLU wants to throw it all away. One of the major things it did was "bring down the wall" holding back intelligence sharing...that's very important.



BTW, I'm not sure where you heard the term "searches without warrants"--it doesn't allow that, but there IS delayed notification. This is pretty logical in situations where there's reason to believe the search may be impacted by notifying a target of a search warrant. What the act DOES need with regard to this is a time limit... I think currently they could wait indefinitely (technically). (I doubt that anything like that is actually happening, but I don't know for sure.)

What specific complaints do you have of civil liberties being lost due to the act?

Of course...this is common sense. Investigators don't care about what you're reading, unless you're the target of a terrorism investigation. I don't think it's feasible for this information to be misused, but maybe I'm just not being imaginative enough?

I don't know how the 9/11 committee feels about the Patriot Act. I doubt that they want it completely repealed, though. The Patriot Act was created to do many of the same things the committee recommended...mainly, to provide tools to law enforcement to detect and prevent terrorism.

In a growing number of cases, amateur and professional photographers who are taking pictures of bridges, industrial facilities or other infrastructure are being confronted by police who sometimes handcuff them and confiscate their film and/or equipment. In at least one case, the shutterbugs were taken into custody and held without charge and without being able to contact anybody. There is NO law in the United States (including the Patriot Act) that prohibits photography of anything other than a few highly-classified military sites. Nonetheless, police feel empowered by the Patriot Act and similar legislation to engage in what amounts to theft in the name of national security.

That's one minor example. In California, law-abiding Muslims have been threatened with deportation in FBI "fishing expeditions" to uncover terrorists. Any volunteers to be investigated, threatened and harassed because of your religion or ethnicity?

Expanding police powers lead to the sort of abuses that often do not come to light until years after the fact. Hoover's infiltrations of the civil rights and peace movements come to mind. While I'm suspicious of slippery slope arguments, we've been down this slide before.

To state the obvious... no.

Oh, and your opinion is just that, an opinion. I couldn't disagree more.

And this is typical of the left... making baseless accusations. Exactly where did I call libs "crazy"??? Speek for yourself because you do a horrible job of putting words in my mouth.

What does that have to do with my question which is about today? Anyhoo, I could claim the same thing with Reagan but will refrain.

I have nothing to hide... maybe you do... lol

Exactly how many terrorist cells would you say is enough to justify it? 1 os enough for me and Bush claims 4. Lay down and roll over for the terrorists if you wish Chip, just don't ask the rest of us to do it with you.

Maybe you missed the little fact that there have been NO terrorist attacks on US siol since 911. A feat almost nobody thought was not possible. At least give President Bush credit for that. Like or dislike President Bush if you wish but the job is getting done even if you will not admit it.

If I was a terrorist I would be laughing my a$$ off at you right now. Yes, that's right... don't "infringe" on anyone's rights so I can exist and survive easier and KILL YOU.

Bring it.

Wow Juro... you never told us that you were a comedian because what you say there is hilarious my friend. Terrorists do not look at 911 as a win for them???? Come on... not even you can really believe that. Oh, and they are not looking to "change our way of life" Juro... they want to KILL every last one of us, a fact that seems to elude many liberals.

That's what President Bush gets criticised for saying if I remember correctly. Lucky for you that I am indeed not a terrorist.

Billy, are you listening to yourself? You are almost without fail the first to pull left vs. right punches, and tbh, as a moderate, I'm pretty sick of it. It's not a liberal vs. conservative thing, whatsoever. It's a matter of preserving the fundamental tenets upon which this nation was founded.

To again quote Mr. Franklin:

UM - I never said you did --- the Aide did you were responding to the quote i took from the article.

see Billy? you responded to my post and I was explaining about what i meant -- the Aide called people on the left crazy (and on the extreme right)

And I'm sure the person the aide works for disavowed any knowledge of the remark as well. Typical. They mail their talking points to unofficial spokespersons and the right-wing attack dogs and then wash their hands of it.

The only real weapon terrorists have is fear. The Trade Center attack was a tragedy, but statistically it was a pinprick. We lost three times as many people that year due to adverse reactions to aspirin and related anti-inflammatory drugs.

Give up irrational fear and embrace the freedoms that America was founded on, and not only do you disarm terrorists, you focus the spotlight on the termites eating away at the foundation from the inside. These are a greater danger than any external threat we face.

The US Federal code already has a plethora of legislative acts upon which to aggressively pursue terrorists. In fact, RICO, the anti-racketeering legislation that conservatives despise, probably covers most of the bases, in and of itself. So, why exactly do we need the patriot act?

I'm sure the Jews in Germany felt they had nothing to hide at one time too. I'm sure the hundreds of people who had their careers and lives destroyed by McCarthy and the House Unamerican Activities Committee felt they had nothing to hide. I'm sure the KGB is Soviet Russia was no big deal. Those people who vanished in the middle of the night never to be heard from again were probably just off to become beachcombers. Maybe we should just start burning books so no one is exposed to dangerous information like Catcher In The Rye or Harry Potter (witchcraft is dangerous!). Bush always says the terrorists "hate us for our freedom" I guess the answer is to take them away so they won't hate us anymore. Learn some history Billy.

You just don't get it Chip. The terrorists declared war against us on 911 and President Bush has responded to the threat at hand marvelously. Has he made "every" decision correctly? Certainly not, neither did our leaders during WWI and WWII. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Personally, I am willing to do anything and everything to win this war and sticking your head in the sand and pretending that there is no threat is not going to do it. Am I willing to set aside some of my personal freedoms temporarily to win this war? You betcha. Why am I willing to do that? Because I have NOTHING whatsoever to hide.

Just look at the sacrifices our grandfathers and great grandfathers made to win WWI and WWI and ask yourself if they would feel as I do? Ask yourself if those wars were to happen today, would we have any chance to win them with this "let's not piss anyone off" cancer that is now festering in the belly of our society?

The fact of the matter is that we have many enemies even among our allies who would like nothing better than to see our country crumble. I am sorry that War is inconvenient. I am sorry that some think we can win a war without killing anyone. I am sorry that war isn't pretty. I am sorry that we will all be asked to make sacrifices to win this war. How about any of you giving me a list of sacrifices that you have made or would be willing to make to win this war? Now that would be interesting indeed.

Oh, and comparing us to Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia is just sad.

No, I'm afraid you're the one who just doesn't get it, Billy. You're being manipulated through fear and you're a shining example of how well it works. I'm NOT willing "to do anything" to win a "war" that can never be won. Do you know anything about McCarthyism? Do you know how things like the KGB and Naziism were rationalized to the citizens of the countries they terrorized? The comparisons aren't sad. They're frighteningly valid. Will sacrificing for the cause involve spying on your neighbors? Turning in your family members? How do you think periods like that in history got started? If you believe it can't happen here, you're a fool.

Hell yes, if needed

Hell yes, if needed

If you think there isn't a war against you and me right now and that we will be fine by doing nothing, you are a fool.

WWI and WWII were won by ordinary people like you and me actually going out of their way, being inconvenienced and doing whatever it took to win. Do you know why they did this Chip? Because someone else did it for them before so they could be free and so they could be the ones doing it so you and I can be free. Appeasing the terrorists, hoping that they aren't real, hoping that they will go away by themselves and becoming isolationists will feed the terrorists fire and give them hope that they can defeat us.

Imagine what could happen if you, me and everyone else FULLY got behind our president and were willing to make ACTUAL sacrifices to win this war. (Still waiting for your list btw) Imagine the power that would be in a country unified to defeat evil here and now. To draw a line in the sand. To do whatever it took to win. If that were to happen, the terrorists wouldn't stand a chance.

People like you Chip enable the terrorists and give them hope which is perhaps our toughest challenge. As long as that hope exists we are all in danger. WE CAN LOSE THIS WAR PEOPLE, how about acting like it for a change. Stop them in their tracks while we still have the power to do so.

I could reply but I'll just let your own words speak for themselves. I rest my case. I'm sure "the party" will reward your loyalty. Maybe you'll get a special armband or something.

AN unquestioing populace would be insanely dangerous.

Yes wed probably beat the terrorists, Iraq, Syria, Iran, would all fall to American power. An iron fist clamped down to keep them from breeding more terrorists.

Saudi Arbia would be coopted American Military might would be used to remove their terroists in training too.

Since actual proof of terrorism is hard and we wouldnt be questioning methods any longer .. Millions would die - Kill them all let god sort them out.

America would rule the Middle East in Empire.

The sun would never set ...

This is Exactly the end result of what Chip is Talking about.

Without freedom of speech, and Freedom of Desent ANY Military Machine like America's is a true terror.

World War One had Desent , so did World War Two .. there were disgreements of how we responded and also that we did.

Power corupts .. an unwavering unquestioning Public? .. Absolute Power corrupts - Absolutely.

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Edit - after reveiwing this I clarified the "you are right" since I only meant Billy is right in that we could beat the terrorists with an unquestioning populance. Changed it to "Yes we'd" - It was not my intent to be perceived as putting words in Billy's mouth

Works for me Chip my friend.