SimCast – How a bad business decision can destroy your dreams…

It almost sounds like one of those priceless commercials for a credit card:

Premium Annual Membership - $72.00 USD
Private Island Simulator - $980.00 USD
Three months of land use fees - $585.00 USD
Custom closed source combat system - $2,100.00 + USD

Witnessing your dreams crumble before your very eyes because you can no longer afford to pay your programmer $25.00 / hour…

PRICELESS!

I am here to tell my story and hopefully prevent someone else from making a very costly mistake. If you intend to have someone write custom code for you, make sure you have open source rights to that code. Period! This is even more critical if you have invested the kind of money I have into a Second Life project.

Not knowing the ramifications of my initial decision has severely crippled the SimCast project, sending us back to the drawing board to recreate the entire combat system from scratch. Hundreds of man hours have been lost due to this bad business decision.

I keep asking myself why… Why did I allow myself to be placed into this position? The answer is quite simple. I wanted something truly unique in Second Life. I wanted to offer the Second Life Community something different to experience.

To my current development team,

Grim Hathor
dreamer Curie
Yuri Fonzarelli
Urizenus Sklar
Mystic Templar
Simone Templar

I owe you all of you an apology for placing us in this situation. I have made a horrible mistake by outsourcing my dreams to a third party SL contractor. For this I apologize from the bottom of my heart…

I also wish to apologize to all the SimCast Resident group members for my failure in these endeavors.

We are actively trying to recreate the combat system from the ground up, but it may be a week or so before we are ready to alpha test. Please hang in there; we will do everything possible to get back on track.

The fact you paid for the code should mean it is yours to look at mate! Your employer pays you and owns the rights to your work!

I would really, seriously, try and get hold of the guys and girls at Second Life (Do it over the phone) and talk to them about it. If you have logs, evidence, bank drafts, they might agree you own the IP and give you rights to look at the code YOU bought.

Man, feel sorry for ya.

P

A contract is a contract.

A good programmer is worth $100 / hour, so this is not unheard of.

However, if the person is a good programmer than you really shouldn't have any problems with his code. Or if you do, they should fix it.

The trouble with using closed source code from others is if they either leave SL or refuse to fix it, then the code is worthless. SL is changing all the time, and it's highly likely that a new revision of the SL client (or even server changes) could break a complex scripting system. They could be the best programmer in the world, and things could still break.

Prong,

I'm so sorry that this happen to you. One thing that i learn in Sim Horror is that i will not have any scripter on Bedazzle who does not share scripts.. When something went wrong, only one person could fix and that drove me crazy when people would IM me. For the price you paid for those scripts. The scripter should have NOT be as selfish to do that. I have scripters on my team who don't want anything, but me being the person that i am, I will NOT allow anyone one on my team to work and not get compensated for their hard work. I have spoken to Jimmy Thomson on our team and Bedazzle group will be honor to step in and help you if you need help to get back on your feet. I have talk to you for a while and i share the same dreams as you and i won't allow your work to go to waste. I don't agree with anyone wanting to make a living off SL right now. That's my opinion. Please let me know what we can do to help you out...

Omg Prong that is such a shame I am really sorry this has happen to you... is it that the scripter is refusing to give you all the rights to these scripts?

I often hire scripters and there are very few scripts that I will pay for that I can not see or edit if needed...

That is just horrible... if there is any way that I can help you... finiancially, or reccoomendations to a good, honest scripter, or anything... just let me know.

*hugs*

As one of the lead devs on the SimCast project I just want to reassure everyone interested in the project that we have by no means given up hope. Prong catiouusly gives a week for alpha testing, but dont be suprised if you see notices of alpha testing as early as tomorrow.

We are making up for lost ground. Prong sees this as a loss, as is completely understandable, he has sunk his time, heart , and money into this project. I too have sunk my time and heart into this project though and I see it not so much as a loss but as an opportunity. I and Mystic are more involved with the project then our previous scripter, I am more passionate about it, and I now have the chance and ability to add everything I thought the old system lacked. We may take a step backwards but once we catch up our progress will move along much quicker.

So, that said, on an up note... things you can expect in SimCasts near future:


Spell Books with streamlined spellcasting, no more having to type out each spell and your target...

targetted weapons... no more FPS style combat where you and your oponent run around 10 minutes to get 2 hits on each other....

Stamina and mana...

Attributes.... strength, coordination, intelligence, all that good stuff.... and they all help...

health varying with class.... we can break the 100 health cap now

XP and Leveling!!!

and much more to come...

We are truly saddened to hear of this painful loss to your project. As all of us know, you build a dream from the ground up, each step makes it become more and more exciting.
We hope so very much that you can rally from this loss. We have been over there and know that it is just an exciting adventure, one that truly broadens our Second Life experience.

Please let us know if we can help you in any way...

With best Regards, Baccara, Fey & the whole Spellbound team

I don't know the details of this, but it sounds like what you've got is a work for hire, and thus, you own the copyright to the combat system. If you feel like it, you could probably sue the programmer for breach of contract.

I'm sorry you hear that. I was at Sim Cast today with a friend and it was just out of this world! In fact I have never seen anything like it in ever. the flowers where so fabulous!!

No one owns the copyright of anything unless it was explicitly given to them.
It is perfectly legal and usual for someone to license you their technology without giving you full IP rights to it, even if you paid a shitload of money for it and based your entire business around it.
Not allowing access to the code is the rule, rather than the exception.
Most systems are closed source, and no one complains about it. It's called configuration.
You can make the same system fit the needs of many people by changing the settings.

In Portugal, maybe. Here in the USA, there is a thing known as a "work for hire": you pay someone to create something for you, and you get the copyright to the product. It doesn't need to be explicit in the contract.

I'm no lawyer, but I believe it depends specifically on the nature of the contract. For instance, if you hire a programmer as an employee, there is an understanding that they are creating "works for hire."

If they are not a regular employee (for example, a contractor) then it needs to be explicit in the contract that they are creating a "work for hire."

i'm a freelance artist (been non freelance too. expensivelance? i dunno what you call it.) and Francis and Eggy are absolutely right. when you get hired places as an employee usually it says in the contract everything you make is "work for hire" and they own it. you could try negotiating it i guess but good luck. when you work for yourself you can set your own contracts but either way if it doesn't say what you made is work for hire, you keep your rights to it.

In responce to this i'm releasing the current version and past 2 versions of my combat system into GPL.

Download

currently the system doesn't work in it's entirety

Hehehe good one!

Combat systems could benefit highly from long range object->object IM.

^ Jack, then stop bitching and make one that does !

Financial problems in a large scale project..... sounds familar . All im saying is that the worst should be expected, especially when you are paying someone 25$ an hour!

I do custom scripting for many people in SL. I charge 5k L$ and hour minimum! And I know some of you are gonna say that's robbery, but you can't argue the fact that I have MANY satified customers and they all come back to me for other jobs!

So if you need help i'm open drop me a line!

Nexus is a great scripter, but I think it would be easier if you charged by the script

It's too difficult to guage how long some scripts will actually take - estimates generally always fall short. (the 90% rule applies here.), I generally prefer to do by the hour rates as well (although a smidgen above what Nexus charges. ).

-Adam

im not a legal expert or anything but im pretty sure it comes down to the fact that if you hire someone to work on project you are in charge of and defining the requirements, design, etc for then you should have rights to the source code developed while that person was employed WHETHER A CONTRACTOR OR NOT

if said person has a third party combat system mostly finished / finished and you pay that person to implement it into your application I would say you do NOT have rights to that source if the third party does not agree to sell you the source separately.

i currently work on a product that we bought the base system source code and are allowed to make any changes to the product... anything i code while im employed is not mine, i would go as far to say i would not be able to use the code i do every single day anywhere else without getting my ass sued by the company i work for.

there are third party systems that i deal with everyday however that it just kills me that we cannot see the source code even to just debug issues... when we have a problem with our software we have to PROVE to the third party that it is a bug in their code without even being able to see code (pain in the ass)

if anything is learned from this... if you are purchasing a 3rd party system you want to use in your project... do whatever it takes to BUY the open source to that system.

if you hire someone to script for you on a project... make it understood that the code is open source to the employer and that you require regular drops (code updates during the progression of the development cycle)

really sorry to hear about your predicament ... hope things work out for you...

That's rough... I wish you guys the best of luck, Simcast was amazing the last time I saw it, and I can't wait to try it out!
I would offer my help, but I'm afraid I'm not good enough to actually help with anything So for now I'll just say good luck, and I hope you realize how many people are excited about this project.




I see this a lot, and it just sounds 'off' everytime. This isn't the USA (or Portugal or Canada or Zimbabwe, etc.) this is SL. And from what I've seen in my short time here, there is no law but the Linden's law.

DAG NAMIT!

I met Prong before he got his sim, we would take catapult rides in Quat (The simple days) this was the beginning of it all. I feel for you buddy and your whole team. It is sometimes a blessing in disguise like your team member mentioned, you can now reflect upon the "old" system and enhance it as you rebuild. I am a builder typically, and I end up rebuilding 3-5 times by the time I feel "done". But this still doesn’t solve anything. It’s extremely hard to get good work these days, and at that it’s even harder to get it at a good rate. Most scriptures are so proud of their work they wont give you access to the proper permissions. In my workings and with my projects I make it clear that I am buying their script and their service for me. (My team really) but what I mean is I let them know if its not full perms then don’t start. I won't pay. What we are talking about here is paid for services, he is paying plenty of RL$ for services rendered he should get the final project, not have the scripture be able to sell it to anyone they want when paid by the idea creator. But it does suck when you allow the scriptures to in good faith not allow open source that you can get under their thumb. What happened to working to be part of a group? To make something above our own egos, to create something the whole community can enjoy and use? Now it’s all about "me" how much you gona pay me, and you want what permissions!

I respect all people and their work, so don’t get me wrong. But when it comes to group projects - open source to at least the main dev or project coordinator should not even be an issue.

On the legal side, if the contract did not explicitly state that Prong / SimCast is owner of the intellectual property, then they have no legal recourse. I have seen legal cases like this and if it's not explicitly stated, then in most cases the court decides in favor of the developer.

On another note, when dealing with freelance development I have found that a 50% now, 50% upon completion pay style along with a signed and dated contract with the terms works best and is safest for all parties involved.

If you are paying a developer hourly on a rolling schedule, you open yourself to exploit by "lazy programmer disease" where the original time estimate is way too low. Also, the programmer does not benefit by getting the job done quickly, so there is motivation to "milk it for all it's worth", at least for developers who do not have high moral standards.

If you absolutely must pay a developer an hourly rate, first off get a signed contract. After that, it is in all parties' best interests to demand the developer first draw up a development plan and timeline with milestones, BEFORE PAYING A DIME. This allows the employer/buyer a margin of safety by seeing the plan ahead of time and also being able to judge the quality of the developer before any code is written. Also if timeline dates begin to slowly move further into the future right from the start, you can dump the developer and cut your losses as early as possible.


-From one who has been on both sides of this battle far too many times, for far too many years.