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Question about the developer incentives change
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
07-12-2005 13:01
From this announcement:

/3/d8/53539/1.html#post564789

One of the options will be to receive your developer incentive payment in L$. Doesn't this put a defacto value on the L$ then? What exchange rate will they use?
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Cristiano


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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
07-12-2005 13:06
I was actually about to ask the same question. Thanks for bringing this up Cris!

EDIT: Oh, I was also just curious in general what people thought of the changes?
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Beau Perkins
Second Life Resident.
Join date: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,061
07-12-2005 13:12
Is it still based soley on Dwell?
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
07-12-2005 13:14
From: Beau Perkins
Is it still based soley on Dwell?


Yes, it seems the only current changes are that you can't get a check any longer (only account credit), and this vague new L$ payment thing.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Foulcault Mechanique
Father Cheesemonkey
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 557
07-12-2005 13:14
Personally I think it is a great idea. I always said that unless I made lots of money and just started to accumlate L$ in the 10,000+ range that I would always want to use L$ to pay for my tier. I'm not in it for the money but not having to deal with GOM, checks, IGE, etc makes anything alot nicer.
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Foulcault
"Keep telling yourself that and someday you just might believe it."

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From: Jeska Linden
I'm moving this over to Off-Topic for further Pez ruminations.
Burke Prefect
Cafe Owner, Superhero
Join date: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,785
07-12-2005 13:14
Can I get an incentive if I'm developing a large-scale warfare system and am actually comissioning code from other people? I don't any land yet, but I do plan to own tier in the near future if I can find some land at the right price.
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
07-12-2005 13:16
From: Burke Prefect
Can I get an incentive if I'm developing a large-scale warfare system and am actually comissioning code from other people? I don't any land yet, but I do plan to own tier in the near future if I can find some land at the right price.


Yes, as the "developer" in developer incentive is used quite loosely. It is all based upon dwell. Presumably, if your game can attract enough dwell on your land, then you will be elligible.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
07-12-2005 13:20
Perhaps someone better-versed in accounting than myself can explain the potential benefits of offering account credits versus paying out cold hard cash, with regard to the health of Linden Lab's balance sheet. Does this make their books look healthier or their budgets appear more trim?
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
07-12-2005 13:22
It's probably like a 100 line perl program hitting a mysql database rather than having to mail out cheques every month.

Also, they have had a conversion value for quite a few months now, check out the economy page. http://secondlife.com/community/economy.php

Though, you have to wonder how meaningless this makes their TOS.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Foulcault Mechanique
Father Cheesemonkey
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 557
07-12-2005 13:24
From: Enabran Templar
Perhaps someone better-versed in accounting than myself can explain the potential benefits of offering account credits versus paying out cold hard cash, with regard to the health of Linden Lab's balance sheet. Does this make their books look healthier or their budgets appear more trim?


Don't know about LL but the user I think would get tax help as it would not appear as a transaction so therefore no money switches hands. Kind of a "internal" transfer of money.
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Foulcault
"Keep telling yourself that and someday you just might believe it."

"Every Technomage knows the 14 words that will make someone fall in love with you forever, but she only needed one.
"Hello""
Galen from Babylon 5 Crusade

From: Jeska Linden
I'm moving this over to Off-Topic for further Pez ruminations.
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
07-12-2005 13:28
From: blaze Spinnaker
It's probably like a 100 line perl program hitting a mysql database rather than having to mail out cheques every month.


Right, but from my accounting classes, I remember reading about various means of restructuring cashflow within your businesses to achieve the same overall effect while improving the overall appearance of health and vigor for the books. I'm wondering if this is such a restructuring.

From: Foulcault Mechanique
Don't know about LL but the user I think would get tax help as it would not appear as a transaction so therefore no money switches hands. Kind of a "internal" transfer of money.


This is very true. I hadn't thought of this part.
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
07-12-2005 13:34
Given that "This month's total awards payout is USD $6,317.14." /3/4d/53443/1.html, I do not believe this is a significant tax issue for LL, at least not financially.. though from a book keeping perspective I couldn't really say.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
07-12-2005 13:36
From: blaze Spinnaker

Though, you have to wonder how meaningless this makes their TOS.


I'll be damned, you made a great point. It does seem it is in direct conflict with this:

4.3 All Data Is Temporary. When using the Service, you may accumulate treasure, experience points, equipment, or other value or status indicators and contribute to the environment ("Accumulated Status";). THIS DATA, AND ANY OTHER DATA RESIDING ON LINDEN 'S SERVERS, MAY BE RESET AT ANY TIME FOR ANY OR NO REASON. ALL CHARACTER HISTORY AND DATA MAY BE ERASED IN WHICH CASE EACH CHARACTER MAY BE RESET TO NOVICE STATUS. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, NOTWITHSTANDING ANY COPYRIGHT OR OTHER RIGHTS YOU MAY HAVE WITH RESPECT TO ITEMS YOU CREATE USING THE SERVICE, ALL OF YOUR CONTENT AND ACCUMULATED STATUS HAS NO INTRINSIC CASH VALUE AND THAT LINDEN DOES NOT ENDORSE, AND EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS (SUBJECT TO ANY UNDERLYING RIGHTS IN THE CONTENT), ANY VALUE, CASH OR OTHERWISE, ATTRIBUTED TO CONTENT OR ACCUMULATED STATUS.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
Foulcault Mechanique
Father Cheesemonkey
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 557
07-12-2005 13:37
Blaze I would agree hardly an issue for LL tax wise. I think it was done for users more.

My father actually screamed at me when he heard about the costs of this game. First words out of his mouth were the taxes involved in such a situation and the accounting. He is an economics major so I trust his wording in such situations. He actually even asked why they didn't have such an internal transfer to help those that wanted to transfer money so that they user didn't get hit with taxes. Even through paypal they still have to record that at the end of the year if the money hits theier bank account if they want correct taxing info, etc.
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Foulcault
"Keep telling yourself that and someday you just might believe it."

"Every Technomage knows the 14 words that will make someone fall in love with you forever, but she only needed one.
"Hello""
Galen from Babylon 5 Crusade

From: Jeska Linden
I'm moving this over to Off-Topic for further Pez ruminations.
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
07-12-2005 13:37
Uh huh.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Foulcault Mechanique
Father Cheesemonkey
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 557
07-12-2005 13:39
From: Cristiano Midnight
I'll be damned, you made a great point. It does seem it is in direct conflict with this:

4.3 All Data Is Temporary. When using the Service, you may accumulate treasure, experience points, equipment, or other value or status indicators and contribute to the environment ("Accumulated Status";). THIS DATA, AND ANY OTHER DATA RESIDING ON LINDEN 'S SERVERS, MAY BE RESET AT ANY TIME FOR ANY OR NO REASON. ALL CHARACTER HISTORY AND DATA MAY BE ERASED IN WHICH CASE EACH CHARACTER MAY BE RESET TO NOVICE STATUS. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, NOTWITHSTANDING ANY COPYRIGHT OR OTHER RIGHTS YOU MAY HAVE WITH RESPECT TO ITEMS YOU CREATE USING THE SERVICE, ALL OF YOUR CONTENT AND ACCUMULATED STATUS HAS NO INTRINSIC CASH VALUE AND THAT LINDEN DOES NOT ENDORSE, AND EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS (SUBJECT TO ANY UNDERLYING RIGHTS IN THE CONTENT), ANY VALUE, CASH OR OTHERWISE, ATTRIBUTED TO CONTENT OR ACCUMULATED STATUS.


easily changed by a TOS rewrite which every TOS has.

Makes you wonder who they WILL endorse though..GOM? They already provide GOM info on the website according to the link blaze gave.
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Foulcault
"Keep telling yourself that and someday you just might believe it."

"Every Technomage knows the 14 words that will make someone fall in love with you forever, but she only needed one.
"Hello""
Galen from Babylon 5 Crusade

From: Jeska Linden
I'm moving this over to Off-Topic for further Pez ruminations.
Commerce Leader
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 32
07-12-2005 13:40
There's gotta be a way to balance out these awards with popular creations. Several examples that are deserving:

Snapzilla (Yeah, hi Cris!)... VERY popular, constantly used.
Open Source AOs (Francis)... WILDLY popular, constantly used.
FreeView (CrystalShard)... A very, very cool program.
Critters (Wynx)... Wow, its taken over.
Tringo (Kermitt)... No intro necessary!

These are three made by friends of mine off the top of my head, so its obviously a totally biased, dare I say, "FIC" list. Any ideas on how to form a metric on popularity of services such as these?

Regards,

-Flip
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
07-12-2005 13:51
From: Foulcault Mechanique
easily changed by a TOS rewrite which every TOS has.

Makes you wonder who they WILL endorse though..GOM? They already provide GOM info on the website according to the link blaze gave.


LL has always promoted GOM. It is interesting that cries of favoritism are muted when it comes to GOM, when it is operated by two SL members. Granted, IGE is a completely different type of market - the difference between a retail and stock market, basically. However, it is GOM's biggest competition - though Anshe seems to have her eye on the prize too. I am not sure how LL can promote GOM and not also promote competing services.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
Foulcault Mechanique
Father Cheesemonkey
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 557
07-12-2005 13:55
From: Cristiano Midnight
LL has always promoted GOM. It is interesting that cries of favoritism are muted when it comes to GOM, when it is operated by two SL members.


I think you hit the nail on the head. Personally I have no issue with GOM or Ansche. I do think if an SLer made it I would turn the other cheek as oppssed to if they promoted IGE. Not going into and FIC theorys as frankly I care less be it a newbie or an oldie if someone has a good idea and they are a strong member of SL it think it makes Sl look better in my mind if they say "Hey look at these guys."
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Foulcault
"Keep telling yourself that and someday you just might believe it."

"Every Technomage knows the 14 words that will make someone fall in love with you forever, but she only needed one.
"Hello""
Galen from Babylon 5 Crusade

From: Jeska Linden
I'm moving this over to Off-Topic for further Pez ruminations.
Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
07-12-2005 14:01
The development bonus used to be 4kUS. Will the amount of funds be increased to accomidate the extra 60 winners or will that amount remain the same?
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
07-12-2005 14:42
There is no need to rewrite those sentences of the TOS.

Instead, they could rewrite the announcement:

"We will no longer be giving actual money awards for the Developer Incentive.

Instead, we will do one of two things:

1. Credit your account indefinitely - meaning you will be able to play for a time without having to pay us tier and/or subscription fees, depending on how big an award you have won, and/or continue to win.

2. Pay you in value-less Linden dollars. If you manage to find someone who will convert these value-less Linden dollars into actual money, good for you."

coco
Editorial Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 116
07-12-2005 14:49
Beyond any TOS arguments dumping $6k US worth of newly minted Linden dollars into the economy each month on top of the removal of the Linden land auction money sink will most likely drop the value of $L even further.

We need more money sinks before you can add this type of strain to the system.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
07-12-2005 14:52
From: Cocoanut Koala
There is no need to rewrite those sentences of the TOS.

Instead, they could rewrite the announcement:

"We will no longer be giving actual money awards for the Developer Incentive.

Instead, we will do one of two things:

1. Credit your account indefinitely - meaning you will be able to play for a time without having to pay us tier and/or subscription fees, depending on how big an award you have won, and/or continue to win.

2. Pay you in value-less Linden dollars. If you manage to find someone who will convert these value-less Linden dollars into actual money, good for you."

coco


An account credit has a value - the credit would have some dollar value associated with it. If you did not have the credit, you would be paying the same amount as the credit. It is not the wording of the announcement that is problematic - it is the either credit or L$ option, as the L$ amount is tied to what the credit would have been, thus it gives the L$ a defacto cash value.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
07-12-2005 14:57
From: Editorial Hare
Beyond any TOS arguments dumping $6k US worth of newly minted Linden dollars into the economy each month on top of the removal of the Linden land auction money sink will most likely drop the value of $L even further.

We need more money sinks before you can add this type of strain to the system.


Odds are that most people are simply going to roll over the credits into their monthly fees. IE, playing for free is better than getting play money (and then converting it to US dollars, waiting, etc.)

LF
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
07-12-2005 15:01
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
Odds are that most people are simply going to roll over the credits into their monthly fees. IE, playing for free is better than getting play money (and then converting it to US dollars, waiting, etc.)

LF


As cutthroat as the developer incentives have become, and with the tremendous amount of work it takes to maintain them, I imagine that people will take whatever gives them the most value - if there is a significant difference between the USD value of trading the L$ versus the account credit, I think you will see people use the L$ option.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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