Why do girls DO this?

I've noticed something lately (RL) that's driving me crazy.

When facing a challenge, say learning something new or technical, some females I know tend to thwart their efforts by throwing their hands up in the air and declaring the task to be "too hard" or claiming "I don't think like that" or "I can't learn that kind of thing". Convinced that they "can't" do (or learn) the task (or skill), they either don't bother trying or abandon their efforts when things get tough. What's worse, the "I can't do this" speech is sometimes delivered in the helpless tones of a lost 5-year-old.

This drives me up the wall.

I'm female. Like the stereotype, I happen to find math very difficult, but that dosn't mean I can't do it! All it means is that it takes more time and effort on my part when it comes to math. Yet I see some women shunning any mathematal challenge (or responsibility) as if it were some mysterious, magical talent that they could never do.

Am I just noticing some isolated examples, or is there a pattern here?
If so, why do women sell themselves short?

Social Conditioning I think.

We are told throughout life were not supposed to be good at certain things. Some believe it.

One of my pet peeves. My mother has never learned to use a VCR, for the simple reason that she has convinced herself that it is too hard or technical and her mind doesn't work that way. It's a cop out of course.

My ex-wife is the same way. Why learn it when she can say she doesn't know how and get me to do it. But I'm training her in many technical aspects now. The most valuable training tool I've found is saying to her, "Figure it out. I did.".

It's funny that you should post on this particular topic, Oly. I have been asked to face such a challenge this week; they've asked me at work to assist in creating a budget for the next fiscal year. I SUCK at math and find the whole process a bit mind-boggling but I can't imagine throwing my hands in the air and saying "I can't do this!". Maybe it's the way some women were raised, knowing that if they didn't try, someone else would come and do it for them.

Interesting post, thanks!

I don't know, and don't care. It works to me benefit in the IT world that there are few females, so....





Honestly though I think a lot of women/girls are not programmed to be analytical thinkers and if you are an analytical thinker at an early age, you are teased for it and it makes life hard, so many play dumb. If you play dumb long enough, you become dumb. I have tried for years to bring a lot of my female friends in lower paying career paths to IT, with no success at all. They aren’t interested, it’s boring, and it’s hard, it’s this and that. Honestly you have to have a real interest in something to make it work, not all people are meant for all things. I have no interest in cleaning house, so I have a service. Some people have not interest in computers so they pay people. Such is life.

I don't think this is an issue of women having a lower tolerance for challenge, I think men and women are just brought to their breaking points by different kinds of tasks. Actually I was just thinking about the difference between men and women last night, in particular the difference between me and Lordfly Didgeridoo as we are both interested in architectural design.

Men on average have a better sense of space and 3D coordination and this shows through in Lordfly's mathematically precise and VERY comfortable structural designs.

Women aren't as good at visualizing 3D space (if you ever throw a ball to me I can assure you it will hit me in the face) BUT we win in the color department. My builds are typically filled with vivid, realistic colors and dramatic shadows baked in all the right places.

Yes, these are just stereotypes (so nobody should ever feel limited by them...yes you CAN make it in an area dominated by the other sex) but they are based on averages and shouldn't be ignored. If you make a list of things in which women excel vs. things men are good at, I think you will find either gender is ready to throw up their arms and quit when they are too deep in unfamiliar territory.

I kinda disagree that is a woman's issue, as it is not only women that sell themselves short. Men do it too, all the time.

I have observed the same reaction from men in numerous ocassions when dealing with with a wide variety of problems (I have been guilty of it too many times).

We really should, as individuals, look past gender, race or any other groups we throw ourselves into. Being a man or a woman or black or white does not mean we are the same as someone else simply because of our skin color or what organs we carry below the waist. We may have more in common with some people than others, but it does not mean we are the same. Each of us has the potential to do anything.

History is full of individuals that have succeeded despite the stereotypes. The problem lies within us, when we begin to believe that we are what other people tell us we are.

T

I very much agree, and also, as part of the stereotypes, I believe on average, men's minds run more to cold logic, or are more accepting of it, while women's minds run more to emotion, empathy and intuition. Of course this is by no means always true, but it is for a large part of both genders.

In the building I work in as a PC technician, we have alot of women and a few men. Most of the women are next to helpless when dealing with any sort of a computer problem, and appear to be unwilling to try and figure them out, while the men, in the same jobs and departments, are almost always either more capable of dealing with such, or are eager and willing to try and figure it out or learn how to fix it.

Lord knows I would go ballistic if I had to spend more than 5 minutes (30 second being my average) on my hair in the morning, and while I have a good spacial knack at decor, my builds, and interiors end up coming across as too cold and rigid.

It's social conditioning. I've seen studies in the past that show that even schoolteachers of very young children talk to boys and girls slightly differently when presenting math and science problems. They baby the girls. You know who else relies on emotion and tantrums? Children. It would be nice to live in a society where people weren't babied based on possession of a vagina. I usually find women who act like children revolting because I was raised by one.

I took a social sciences class a few years ago that pointed out that violent crimes are statistically more likely to occur from blacks than whites in the states. But it has nothing to do with innate tendencies, it's a class issue-- just like women acting like children more often than not has nothing to do with innate ability, it's societal.

My pet peeve with the ladies in the office is when I show them something on their computer and they say: "Man, I am sooooo stupid".

Then I have to explain that no matter how smart you are, you will never understand something you've never seen.

Definately not just women, you just described my dad

And it sounds just as horrible to me as the grating of a fork on a plate.

***thows hands up in the air***

I find this question too difficult to answer, I just can't do it!!!

I find women are as capable as men in technical tasks, but they tend to be more vocal about it when they're frustrated. Men are more likely to consult help files or manuals when they hit a roadblock; women are more likely to seek help from other people.

This creates the perception among some that women are "helpless", when they're not helpless at all. They're just gathering information from a different channel than men.

These are generalizations. There are always people (like me) who do it just the opposite of what we're expected to.

I wont go on a "tantrum" of why i got upset at this post when i first read it. I will point out something very simple.

Women are neither more emotional / nor do they throw more tantrums then men.

(Whether nature or nuture) A Man's emotion of choice is Anger .. and becuase of larger muscle mass and a propensity for violence a man's tantrum is considerably more dangerous that a woman's ---- the amount of domestic violence commited by men by itself is appalling.

So when you compare women to children becuase of emotion and tantrums .. consider that men are just as "childish" though i would argue darker.

It is true that girls are taught that they can display more of their emotions openly (anger discouraged by the way) -- and boys are taught to be more stoic , however anger and agression are rewarded (football and other contact sports for example)

Those studies you mention do not necessarily point out that girls in math class are babied .. they point out that girls are more likely to be IGNORED. Most suggest that when a boy and a girl both with their hands up - the boy is much more likely to be called on.

Its absolutely untrue women are afraid of challenges. Part of this perception may be we are also conditioned to readily admit when we dont know something

.. wheras a man who has no clue will .. for ego's (ego also encouraged more in boys) sake try anyway. this probably works to their benifit due to learning by trial and error.

Completely agree. I love good architecture, I love things that look great. I do my best at building, but I feel that the males in the game excel at it. I'm not unhappy with what I build, but admitedly, I can't seem to pull things together the way the guys can. And what takes me days of work on a build can take them hours.

But I wouldnt want Maxx of Marcos or Lordfly to decorate my apartment. I'm better at that. So nya nya guys!

Juro and Barnesworth on the other hand... they are exceptions to the stereotypes as they can both build and decorate. This is why they both must be eliminated.

And I HATE the numbers.

Wha???? Men reading instructions or help files? Bah..what alternate universe do you live in? No true man reads instructions until all other possibilities have been exhausted!

Very interesting question, one that I was kind of thinking about recently in light of the differences between how my husband and I approach nearly any task and the differences in what tasks are important to us.

I suspect that since for a living now, I design [hardware type] cryptographic products and create specifications, that I'm probably an analytical thinker. Even when I was younger and considering going further in law enforcement, my interest was in forensics and not in people.

That said, in the division of household duties, I gravitate on my own to the more traditional tasks (cooking dinner, laundry, dusting, etc), while my husband handles manly, man stuff like plumbing, electrical, framing etc. I am ok when handed a paint brush but I am scared shitless of a power saw. Why?

In addition, I am spatially spastic. I have difficulty conceptualizing the difference between three feet and six feet, right or left, east and west.

Unless a picture is REALLY crooked, I don't notice it but 1/16th of an inch off will drive my husband mad. I'm not saying that I can't do these things, I'm just saying that they require a real effort on my behalf where as they are merely a course of action or natural inclination for my husband.

OTOH - my husband has to make a concerted effort to recognize and process human and animal expression and behavior as well as language. While I speak three languages fluently he has difficulty with one and gives me the same "I just can't do that" whine about understanding language that I give him when he asks me to measure or square something or when he asks me complex mathematical questions that he can calculate in his head but he wants to see if I can. (I can't, it requires effort on my behalf despite what I do for a living).

Our first week in SL, he created a dodecahedron and an atom and I created animals, trees and waterfalls. A classic example of where we each gravitated to what we were inherently more comfortable with. When we got our Furu land, he built the decks and bridges and I built our house and the gardens.

I don't know if it's as much a difference in sexual stereotype (though that plays a role) as it is a difference in which part of our brain is more dominant. The chief mathematician where I work is a 24 year old female with a PhD, so I don't think a persons sex precludes or excludes thought patterns.

The bottom line is that I believe that with enough effort, I could learn to not fear a power saw and to actually cut a straight line on a board with one. I also believe that my husband can learn to speak another language. The issue is the amount of energy that each of us would have to dedicate to the effort and the payback resulting from the energy expenditure.

Learning new things are a risk as well. What if you fail? What if I were to saw a $200 dollar piece of rare walnut incorrectly or injure myself? Or if my husband were to go into Miami and attempt to speak Spanish and say the wrong thing? (Both equally as dangerous).

It sort of boils down to a combination of physical ability, mental inclination, level of effort or desire and how great the resulting payback or punishment will be for having learned or completed the task.

Sounds like a lot for our minds to process but I think we do it as automatically as we breathe, frequently resulting in responses such as "I can't do it", which probably really means, "I don't want to take the time to do it" or "I'm afraid I might fu*k it up and be punished".

.

Beautiful post Rose. AND I'm happy somebody came up with more examples where women dominate other than "doing our hair" (I love you David but GERR )

Add "pushing buttons at random until something interesting happens". The point is, some men (not all, but a good number) will do anything in their power to avoid admitting to another person that they need help.

I do the same thing, but that's because I'm just a such a shy, retiring wallflower

I was the same way with scripting when I first started. Quite a few guys tried to teach me to script and I went to classes. And they all taught me concepts. Like "this is a function", "this is an event" and I felt stupid because while all the guys were getting it, I was like...um...but what do I put? Even understanding what a function was if I opened a piece of paper I couldn't create a script.

Then one day another female taught me how to script. And she told me to put "{" and then "llSay();" etc and explained WHY well after the script was done. And thats how I learned to script. I work in education so I am very focused on learning styles. My personal learning style is I need to know what to do before I know why I am doing it. Because if you give me the why first I just don't make the proper connections in my head. I have the same issues with math. Men and women are socialized to think differently and that can (not always) cause us to process information differently and if only one style of learning is offered for certain subjects then people who don't learn that way can feel stupid and get discouraged when they really aren't dumb, they are just used to getting information in a different way.

Damnit David! You just blew my reality of me being a man. Now I just have no idea....

*tries to consult a manual for help*

I have had the same experiences with scripting. The theory behind it is great, but show me WHAT do to first, ok? I still can't really create a script from scratch, while I can mod them usually to get them to do what I want.

I think someone teaching a scripting class using this tactic would be a huge success....I know I would go.

I wasn't addressing other sex differences other than learning. Sorry if I put you on the defensive. I'm also not excusing the effect of hormones on human behavior (women have even larger hormone swings than men, don't they?), but I'll address that issue now that you brought it up.

Statistics are an interesting thing because they don't actually prove anything. For instance, "I've heard that milk contains a mild sedative. We've all heard about gateway drugs right? I wonder if milk is a gateway drug. Let's do a survey of heroin users to see if they started out drinking milk. Wow... look at this data. 95% of heroin users drink milk!"

So when you mention "the amount of domestic violence commited by men by itself is appalling!", I have to step back from that for a second. Yes, the statistics are much much higher for men than for women. However, you also mention that men are taught to be stoic and I have to wonder how many abuses by women go unreported by men because they are afraid of humiliation? I imagine the numbers for women are much higher than reported. Perhaps not as high as men, but I imagine much higher. I've never reported my own mother... I mean... she's my mother. But if a father beats a child (or a spouse), then suddenly it's a whole different issue.

I'm not excusing violence- just questioning if a broader view of social interaction and human motivation needs to be considered before rushing to condemn either sex. I imagine you feel the way you do because you have experienced violence by a man first hand, but there are those of us who have experienced the opposite but could never find the voice to express it because that option was conditioned out.

I don't understand what "clue will" is. Could you clarify that for me so I can understand your last point?

But..but..doing hair is a remarkable and mysterious achievement in my eyes. It's right up there with being able to apply mascera while driving down the freeway during rush hour.

Hmm...maybe I should just be quiet...

Amiee...drop the scissors...

When I said "baby," I was using the term referring to how people act like it is OK for women not to understand analytical things based on the fact that they are girls. In my opinion, they are babied by this attitude.

I was not using it to demean females or suggest that women aren't ignored by educators. I agree with you that they are.