France places a ban on religious head cover in schools

What's up with France?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=1&u=/ap/20031217/ap_on_re_eu/france_head_scarves

I don't think you really want me to answer that

I'm gonna go eat some freedom fries and keep my mouth shut on this one....

for once

JV

They also banned Crucifixes. It means that observant Christians, Moslems and Orthodox Jews won't be sending their children to secular public schools, so they will likely wind up even less assimilated into the French culture and more polarized in their beliefs.

Ironically enough.... every one of those religions also has prohibitions against graven images......

We are talking about the french here.

what do you expect? logic?

I knew instinctively that the French do not think like anyone else the first time I tried to fill the gas/petrol tank in a Peugeot!

What ISNT up with france, for godsakes, Jrenslow Bach was from france

why is the ban such a bad thing? they're not calling out any specific religion?

and i know there are many clothing items that would be banned here in the U.S.

its funny.. over the last year, we (americans) have taken to bashing the french more than we usually did. we've always had unpleasant things to say about them: they stink, they all smoke, paris is filled with poodle droppings, theyre rude, etc.

this year i spent a week in paris, and not a single thing that i heard about paris or parisians was true. they didnt stink, the streets were clean (no dog poop and they clean the streets something like 2x day), i had one rude encounter with a metro employee. that was it.

anyway... i really dislike this bandwagon we've seemed to jump on lately with regard to the french, and to some degree the germans.

getting back to the post... i really dont see an issue with what they are doing. if you want your kids to be able to wear religious garments send them to a private, religious school.

I'm with you Juro.

I wrote a really long message, then deleted it by accident.

In short, I agree with Judo.

What is something that America wants to do? The answer is to seperate church from government and schools. France is taking the step that America hasn't gotten the courage to take. We may take that step so be prepared.

Also, I dislike the French stereotypes knowing that most of my family is French. I also don't like that Jren's reputation is blamed on the French. It's called "youth" not being French.

However, I do agree that some are "rude" but not everyone. There's people in every nationality are rude.

I agree with Judo too.

HATAAAA!!

Ouch! I think I hurt my hand.

We have Freedom of REligion, and our constitution states that congress shall pass no law abridging the peoples right to practice their religion (my words didn't look it up)..

What is it you people want? Why don't we hand you the original constitution and let you burn it ok?

Will that appease you?

MaineGOP

I think you dont know what Judo is
Judo is defensive. No "HATAA", no punching, kicking, whateva.
Judo is all about harnessing the agressive energy of your adversary to defend yourself with minimal force.

We want a neutral public square where we don't have to have religion shoved in our faces. We want it kept in private homes and churches where it belongs.

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"The free exercise thereof" does not incude the right to impose your religious symbols on others. If you want your kids to be immersed in religious symbolism all day, send them to parochial school. That's what they're for. It doesn't belong in public schools. The only way for them to equally respect all beliefs is to keep religion out entirely. Why is that so difficult to understand?

well said chip!

jonathan, im not really sure what you meant by "you people", but whenever someone uses that term, it is never implied with warm fuzzy feelings. who do you mean exactly?

i just think that there is anything wrong with what they are doing. what purpose does wearing religious symbolism serve in public school? it can promote a separatist attitude amongst the schoolkids. since when was that ever a good idea?

Boy do I disagree with Juro and Chip. And I'm an atheist, just so that's clear.

How does religious headwear shove anything into your face? Are your views threatened by religious headwear? Are your sensibilities too delicate for that? Should you be prohibited from wearing a Darwin fish t-shirt in a state park? That's a public place. Or is a Darwin fish OK because it's not a religious symbol? Plenty of people would be offended by that, though.

Do you actually think that "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church & State" means prohibiting expression of beliefs by individuals? Because it doesn't. Chip, I've never met you. I've admired the clarity with which you've expressed your views here in the forums. This one surprises me though.


How many dozens of things besides religious symbolism promote separatist attitudes among schoolkids? How will hiding religious difference promote tolerance and acceptance? If everyone appears to be the same, that's a good thing? So I can assume that everyone around me is acceptable because they're not different from me? That's how to teach tolerance?

I'm not here to bash the French. But a law that prohibits free expression goes against what true freedom should be, so I do think it's a narrowminded law. It seems like some weird, misguided go at political correctness.

Thanks for your post Fallingwater. I freely admit that I have a biased opinion on this issue and I can truly see it from both sides of the fence. On the one hand, restricting people's right to self-expression rubs me the wrong way because I believe strongly in the rights of individuals, and on the other hand, I see the power religion has to divide people and cuase needless strife and self-imposed segregation.

I guess you could say what my point of view boils down to is this... I wish people would put their fellow human beings above their imaginary friends in the sky. I think the world would be a much better place for it.

My view is also altered by two women in my life. One I've loved deeply, and one I've dated and who is a good friend. One was born in Iran, and the other in Iraq. Both of them were raised here in the states. Both of them were forced as children to wear head scarves. They were too young to truly understand the reasons why. It was not their choice. It was imposed on them by their parents. Both of them suffered deep scars that still effect them emotionally (they are both now in their 30's) from being forced to single themselves out from their peers instead of being allowed to blend into the culture in which they lived in their most formative years, when acceptance or ridicule has the power to effect the rest of their lives and emotional well-being.

This is merely the latest (and most laughable) attempt by a certain portion of the French government to repress minority religions and ethnic groups. It's a restriction of freedom of expression. Engineering conformity among the population has no place in a free society.

There is a long history of anti-semitism and persecution of minority religions in France. Not too long ago, they had an anti-sect law which said that if ANY two members of a religious group were convicted of a crime, the ENTIRE church could be abolished. This applied to a list of about 200 identified "sects". This law was eventually ruled unconstitutional, about 2 years ago I think.

No doubt this much sillier law will enjoy a little time repressing the population before they get tired of it and strike it down too.

now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

Ananda... exactly which minority group is being repressed here?

They're getting rid of it all. Is it also wrong to ban the wearing of gang colors in school?

I tend to agree with Chip, as a practicing Roman Catholic I am all for the separation of Church and State. If one wants to promulgate their faith is shoud NOT be in the public schools which are paid by everyones taxes.

I sacrificed a great deal to send my children to Catholic Schools. It is not right to impose ones beliefs on others.

Color me weird, but that is my firm belief.

Food for thought as far as religous symbols are concerned.... has it ever occured to anyone that Native American religous symbols are widely used in schools? How many schools have a Native American cheiftan in full religous headdress painted or embedded on the gym floor, walls, side of the building, etc. ?

Not only is this extremely insulting to those who hold such things sacred, but it is a blatant violation of all the seperatist rhetoric that is spewed forth constantly by all sides of the debate.

It is a blatantly hypocritical and to some, sacreligous statement that is plastered all over the place.

Perhaps we should ammend our comments to specifically exclude religons of those who have been wiped out by acts of genocide. After all, the mass killing was done with such great sucess, there aren't really enough of them left to worry about their belifes and/or complaints.

-AP

I couldn't agree with you more Ant. I happen to live near Washington, DC... home of the disgustingly named Washington Redskins. It makes me sick.

Point well made Taggy!!!

Adding such symbolism was a step that should have never been made.

As George Carlin said (and I paraphrase): You know the Irish have a sense of humor not to complain about the 'Fighting Irish'...can you imagine having a team called "the Bargaining Jews"??

Those symbols (Native American Religious headdresses on public schools) are a violation of the separation of church and state.


HOWEVER.... religious headwear, crucifixes and the like are NOT.

The separtion of church and state disallows the promotion BY THE GOVERMENT (ie the public school) or the prohibition BY THE GOVERNMENT (ie the public school) of any particular religion.

THUS...the PUBLIC SCHOOL CANNOT
for example;
host or require prayer

display (as an institution) religious symbols (outside of an educational program on those symbols and equally including conflicting views, symbols and ideals)

NOR can they ask that those INDIVIDUALS who wear crucifixes, headress or other religious articles cease to do so.

Any of that would be a violation of the separation of church and state!!!!

My decision to wear an ankh, a crucifix, a star of david, a darwin's evolution fish or any of the like cannot be determined by the state.

Gang colors are an entirely different issue. There is no identified religion that sports gang colors as a religious expression.

The problem often lies in the combination of ideas like gang colors and crucifixes...

or in believing that because I am standing in a building OWNED and RUN by a government institution that it has a right to 'own' my rights to religion. Separation of church and state does not grant it that right.

If you dispute the display of such items/ideals by individuals then please support YOUR ideals and disputes properly. Separtion of church and state as we practice it in the US would NOT allow what the French have done.

Of course...France is not in the US, and while those of us who reside in the states may totally disagree with what France has done BASED on our support of separation of church and state, we cannot use the argument of separtion of church and state to support what they have done. IT DOESN'T APPLY!!!

Thank you,
~Alana

A Darwin fish is not a religious symbol (however it is a parody of the xian equivelant and could probably be banned on those grounds).

I'd like to see school uniforms personally. Blue jeans, a navy blue t-shirt, and white sneakers. The kids won't hate wearing it, and it promotes an even playing field. When they reach highschool let them wear what they want. That's the age it starts to become important to encourage them to establish their individualism. Before that all kids want to do is fit in.