Points of interest in the new Terms of Service

Hi there.

I am new, so not that well learned about SL, but I do have one concern about all of this. A friend of mine who has been playing SL for a while got me to join. Part of the reason I joined was because of some links I was provided by said friend in reference to SL. What particularly caught my eye was the video of Philip Linden stating on CNN that the Linden dollar has real value.

Reading the quoted material in Cienna's initial post, it clearly informs us that this is not the case, that in fact they may delete our money if they see fit, and that it has no real value. This disturbs me a bit, because one of the common themes in the articles and videos about SL that I viewed, mainly expressed by Linden employees themselves, were claims of real value of Linden currency. After all, they seem adamant that this is not a game, and nearly offended when someone says it is a game, so what gives?

What gives is simple coverage against disaster.
The L$ has no value so far as it goes between you and Linden Lab. This is so if some disaster should befall them and you can no longer play in SL, then don't owe you for the 20KL$ you had in your account. Or, if they ban you for being a pequerhead, they don't have to pay you for the 50L$ you had. Or... well, you get the picture.

Everyone knows it doesn't have a value, silly boy.

My point is that there are Linden employees out there in the public eye saying it DOES have real value. Doesn't anyone else see that as an issue?

Whaaaa? If this is addressed to me, which it looks as though it is, I have to say, thats a heck of a way to speak to someone after their first post. I was warned about this type of stuff on these forums, yet I ignored the warnings. Maybe I shouldn't have.

I read the whole new TOS down, up and sideways. I'm actually quite relieved that they made these changes. The lack of a few of them was bugging me, as it laid them open to low-merit law-suits that could cause them significant damage. And what damages LL, stands a good chance of damaging SL.

It's a pretty good piece of ass-covering, all things considered. Stock, well-known legal phrases with legally unambiguous meanings. ('for any reason or no reason' is one of those - Don't make the error of reading it in english, as an english phrase it implies something rather different to the legal phrase as it hinges on the word 'reason' which differs in use between legalese and englishspeak).

Essentially, LL are shoring the TOS up against threats to LL/SL as a whole. I feel more comfortable now that they have done this.

And no, I'm not in the 'LL can do no wrong' camp. They can make stupid, boneheaded decisions, just as any of us can. I just don't think this is one of them.

However, if you don't agree to the TOS, then frankly there is only one alternative. The same one that exists for any online service to which you do not fully agree to the TOS: https://secondlife.com/account/cancel.php

No - because, as is the case for most things about everything in SL, the real-world value is assigned by the residents/players/users/us.

See, when they say it's our world, they mean it. Well, mostly.

Sorta.

I have to agree with Rinji, scratching my head here. How is it not assigning real world value by a Linden, the CEO in fact, when he clearly states on CNN that the Linden Dollar has real world value?

Come on now Jillian, you're side stepping his point.

Well, at this point I'm just the Devil's Advocate, but:

How much value did he assign it? Or did he just say "it got value!"?

I do. This is the point I was trying to make when I said, "The real issue here is that the contract seems to be at odds with the vision that compelled users to become part of the project." Yours is a great concrete example, and I appreciate it.

I will look for the link, I remember it being posted here before. Phil is asked about the currency, and if I remember correctly, the interviewer refers to it as play money, and Phil corrects him, saying that it's not. Stand by for linkage!

*Taps foot impatiently, checks watch*

(Gestures sure are easier to use in-world.)

Well I found one, and it is CNN, but it's not the interview that I remember, perhaps it was a different outlet, so I will have to dig around a bit more as time and RL permits.

This doesn't read as malicious in my opinion.

It reads:

Has anyone a copy of the eBay TOS to compare it against this one ?

I guess that Linden Lab, although ready to make nice public statements about ownership, business in SL and that people are making real US$ out of L$, aren't quite ready to back that up in their TOS.

The TOS shows a certain schizophrenia in policies, an inconsistency in what LL actually either believe or are willing to give full support to. It doesn't really suprise me that Philip would make grand statements in public, that the TOS effectively negates, as nobody is going to go through a TOS with him "on air" to contradict him

Maybe LL's lawyers and LL themselves are at loggerheads about how they can still protect themselves, whilst giving support in the TOS for the grand ideas. LL could also just be too small to follow through those grand ideas with support in the TOS, because of limited funds should they open themselves up to the possibility of litigation.

In some ways I find the TOS contradictory and at odds with Philip's own promises, and I feel there's a bit of false advertising going on by him with the TOS is in its current form.

It's a great MMORPG EULA, but then SL isn't really an MMORPG is it.

hmm.. I think a good way to understand it is that the L$ has no value outside of SL as long as it remains a L$. However, if the L$ is purchased by someone with US$, then the US$ does have value.

I think of a rare baseball card. I could not walk into the grocery store and pay for my groceries with the baseball card. But I could go to someone who wanted to buy the baseball card, sell it to them, and then use the cash they gave me to go buy my groceries.

This is the way I have always read the way the Lindens refer to the L$ in the TOS and other mediums.

Which is a good thing. If the L$ had a recognised "legal" monetary value, then it would be a legally taxable asset - even if you NEVER took them out of the game and converted them into "real world" money, you'd still be liable to tax on them. Every gambling machine in the game would also be subject to real-world gambling regulations... and imagine having to fill in a tax return for every money ball payment you ever got hit by(!). Rediculous though it sounds, this is all absolutely true... so a L$ that remains as play money right up until the point of exchange is absolutely fine by me!

Coco, check the background of the company that bought the rights to Tringo. You may be amazed. I wasn't.

You own the content, that is still true. All they are saying is, if for some reason that data gets lost or destroyed, you can not sue LL.

At least thats how I read it.

Heh heh.



Hey, we can have ALTs everywhere, baby!

Why the rush to get the new ToS into place? It has long been the case that Linden Lab promotion, practices, and ToS have had nothing to do with each other.

Methinks they were worried that IGE's recent bout of internal fraud was going to spill over into liability to Linden Lab as it is a hell of a lot easier to sue a California firm than a Hong Kong firm. Moreover, they couldn't lockout IGE and return the player L$ on deposit, because, get this, Linden Lab has no idea whose L$ are on deposit with IGE.

Way to Be The Change folks.

ebay TOS

Basically the same. User waives warranty, dispute and liability rights.
I haven't checked the sub policies.

(rinji replying to yet another of blaze's "well thought out" posts)



Rinji , meet blaze - resident forum Trolls - were not sure how many blaze is , his alts are legion.

blaze, please go easy on the newbies.