new proposal: gun control.

I propose that anyone with an account of less than one (1) month be forbid from using any sort of projectile script.

This includes guns, paintball guns, pop guns, rocket launchers, and the like.

LF

Not trackable. Only way to make sure of this is to not allow under-one-monthers to use scripts at all. Sorry, but if someone is annoying you, you should just abuse-report it.

Hmmm, wouldn't want a newbie to get his hands on one of my falling-towers guns, would ya? hehehehe

I disagree. I think it IS trackable. Just auto-ban any user that signs up with the last name Chaos.

With apologies to decent users ending in Chaos...

Sapphire

it is generally better to use the abuse reporting tool than to impose draconian restrictions on the world that will ultimately frustrate many decent people and stymie very few annoying people (who could have been better dealt with using the abuse tool anyway)

I first encountered the joy of "push guns" while trying to teach a class on Stage 4. In the space of a 30 minute class, I was blown off-world thrice in a "no damage area". I don't believe that the shooter is in SL any longer. I did not know the shooter, nor he me.

Last night I was helping a friend shop in Tan. A griefer with a push-gun entered Tan (also a "safe zone" and blew all seven avatars present in Tan off-world and continued to do so for about ten minutes. I lost ten minutes of game time being shot and then placing myself back in the line of fire so that I could generate a usable abuse report. Meanwhile, I had to recommend that the *external* game reviewer that I was helping sit on the ocean floor while I dealt with this.

I fail to see any benevolent purpose of push-guns (or the underlying LSL calls), but could be missing something. At the very least, a record of who blew me off-world would be helpful. At present, the only "proof" I have was the screenshot of the griefer pointing the gun at me and a chat log saying "prepar to DIE".

To make a not too strained real life analogy, we simply don't permit this conduct in most locales. Also in real life, merchants who cannot sell items because crime has driven their customers away typically compel the govenrment into greater police presence. If I was a Tan merchant, I would be annoyed that my potential customers were getting blown away by one person with an attitude and a weapon. If I were Linden Lab I'd be concerned that such "liberties" defeat the concept of "safe" and risk alienating productive residents.

This isn't a case of a bad build or an annoying sign or even a horrendous looping sound. This is unprovoked, poorly policed Player vs. Player pseudo-violence. If I chose to go into a "non-safe" sim, getting "killed" is actually less of a hassle then getting blown off world.

Can anyone explain the rationale behind this or even make a good guess? I've falied.

The new abuse tool features will tell you exactly who did it, and report as much to the Lindens if requested.

-AP

The solution to push guns is very simple: get rid of push. There's no need for it, you can get the same effect with attachments and stuff.

The basic philosophy of script design in SL, as I see it is:

- Scripts are considered part of the world. They can do anything you can do, no more or less. You can't do arbitrary things to arbitrary objects and avatars.

- Attachments containing scripts you wrote can do anything to the wearer that the wearer can do. By wearing your attachment, a player implicitly submits to your scripts.

Simple and effective. If someone doesn't like your attachment, they can just take it off. Permissions provide a few additional safeguards for financial transactions and similar.

Push stuff is an exception to this philosophy because it is an arbitrary effect to arbitrary avatars and objects. I don't think we lose too much if we ditch it.

ZHugh

As Huns said about imposing restrictions, I don't agree with removing push. There are many legit uses for it. Just because you don't use/know about it's nonabusive abilities doesn't mean its useless to everyone. Something HAS to be done about those who abuse it tho I agree. But if we start removing everything that can be abused...there will be no SL.

I can grief/abuse with non-physical block...does that meant we should remove the ability to create objects?? I thought not..

Yes, please totally and irreversably break the hoverball game I spent two weeks buliding because a handful of assholes are running around griefing people.

The problem isn't that push functions exist, it's that they can be used against other people and their objects without permission. Fix that.

> There are many legit uses for it.

You can do most everything with attachments.

I want you to move, I give you a bracelet, it moves you.

Let's do some concrete examples:

- I'm holding a race, hoverboard race. Everyone in the race is wearing my racing tag. They can fire push bolts at each other and they work, really well, because the racing tags enforce them.

Innocent bystanders are unaffected, it's all nice

As a bonus, you can actually make the attachments kill people, tp them back to the start or whatever. Lots of fun!

- I make a sword, for sword fighting. I can push everyone else with a sword because the swords do the pushing for me.

Again, as a bonus, I can do all sorts of stuff. I can make it so that if I kill someone they give me L$50! I can make it so that if A kills B, A gives B L$40 and me L$10! A lot of power.

- I make a party vehicle. I want it so that when I move the vehicle sideways, people don't fall off I give everyone a party bracelet. THe ship talks to the party bracelet and makes sure everyone stays where they are supposed to be.

Also, can throw everyone up in the air occasionally for fun and photos

Seriously, I think you would find it hard to find some concrete absolutely-must-have example that couldn't be done with attachments.

The concept of scripts as part of the world, that you give someone an attachment to make them join your virtual game is very cool, works very nicely. I have to say I was very surprised when I found out that non-attachment push is not yet nerfed.

ZHugh

Here is a little experiment I spent a few minutes playing with. It is workable. I set up a push ball that I walked into. Without the shield it pushed me across the room. With the shield attached I stopped within a step or 2.

I just created a transparent box that encased me down to ankle level and put this script in it. Then attached the box to my nose.

All it does it zero your velocity upon collision. And it checks to see if the colliding object is below foot level (which a push bullet wouldn't be). Walking around, I noticed a few slow downs when hitting walls. You could put in a check like llDetectedType(0) & SCRIPTED to filter down the collision responses.

Anyhow... Anti-Push Shield code:

default
{
    state_entry()
    {
    }

    collision_start(integer total_number)
    {
        vector curPos = llGetPos();
        vector objPos = llDetectedPos(0);
        // this is to prevent floor collisions from slowing you
        if (curPos.z - objPos.z < 1)
        {
            while (llVecMag(llGetVel()) > 0)
            {
                llPushObject(llGetOwner(), -llGetVel(), <0,0,0>, FALSE);
            }
            llWhisper(0, "push");
        }
        else
            llWhisper(0, "neg");
    }
}

Some examples of the value of llPushObject

1) Trampolines

2) A little while ago I built a marble maze where the marble itself was just a physics-enabled sphere and I used llPushObject to help it through the maze at various times.

3) Nyna and Linkin Slates Hippo Rapids Ride for Lindenworld (Not there anymore as it didn't make it to the next round ). It used llPushObject to help the free-floating raft around the track. I know because I did the scripting for it.

You said must-have though didn't you?

Technically what in LSL is must-have? I mean really, this game would be just as fun if there wasn't LSL at all, right? Just building and texturing... Why do we even need LSL, it only serves those who wish to abuse others, right? Hmm no wait, you can make offensive textures and you could enclose someone in a box prim. Hmm well texturing and building have to go to then I guess. That's ok we'll just have a chat program. Ohh wait! You can swear and insult others! Chat has got to go too.... Sorry you just can't play SL. You can login and that's about it...

No offense ZHugh. Understand I'm just exaggerating the situation to express my point not to flame you.

It's not the tool, it's what you do with it. llPushObject has many good uses and is as 'must-have' as anything else in LSL. All of these seperate parts are what make SL was it is, a very awesome game!

Unfortunately, it is possible (and fairly easy) to write push scripts that do not use projectiles at all. Stopping these is more difficult. Using llMoveToTarget usually does a fairly good job of locking you down, but also immobilizes you while it's turned on.

I've experimented with scripts that activate when your velocity tops a certain speed, but a really powerful push script will throw you into the stratosphere before they have a chance to activate.

This is kind of pointless. The Lindens already built in something that shows exactly who script-tossed you. You take that and make an abuse report, and the person gets dealt with. I don't see why existing functionality should be ruined because of the occasional griefer, particularly with all the melee weapons out there that depend on llPushObject().

If you are really hot on the idea of preempting script tosses, it's fairly simple. I have that capability built into one of my attachments. You trap control inputs and use a timer event to see how long it's been since the last control input. If the person has been holding still for longer than (say) one second, you call llMoveTo(llGetPos(), .01) and set a "locked" flag. The control() event checks for the locked flag, and if it is set, it calls llMoveTo(llGetPos(), 0), which cancels the critical damping that keeps you in place.

In operation, it is totally automatic and quite transparent. You don't even know it's running. When someone tries to script-toss you, or bumps into you to try to move you (which, by the way, disabling llPushObject() isn't going to solve), you may move a small amount, but you immediately snap back into place. I have successfully used this against griefers.

Yea I use something also that works well, kinda similiar to Hun's idea. But it isn't automatic. And I can tell it to move me at the same time, like I say up 60 and it takes me up 60 meters and locks me in place. I have a shut off command that disables it so freemovement is allowed.

Also I have found that sitting on a object stops everything. So if its that much of an issue getting pushed...Have a seat

Anyone care to donate any of this wonderful code to the public domain for the betterment of SL?

And by the way, where are these newbies finding these push guns? They aren't writing them themselves. I went looking for one to test with. In Jesse the only grief tool I found was anti-Linden trapping/teleport home/kill/proximity notification devices for sale. Which is just grief in a box with a price tag.

If only. I probably filed 10 to 15 abuse reports over the past couple of weeks, both using and not using the new automatic tool thingy and I still have to put up with the same annoying people every day.

I think Huns's idea of overriding the controls is great, and will be playing with it in the next few days. If I come up with something, I will make it freely available in AV Central.

Here is my interpretation of Huns concept. Feel free to use/criticize/improve it. It works well so far. You don't even notice it other than the Release Keys button being there. Once it has been reviewed I'll post it to the script library and put out a free AntiPush Ring in game.

// AntiPush Script V1.0
// Created 11/17/2003 by Sapphire Bombay
// Last Updated 11/17/2003
// Concept adapted from Huns Valen
// Freely donated to the public domain

integer locked;         // TRUE if avatar is damping to current position
float LOCKWAIT = 1.0;   // if you don't move for this period of time, you lock into place

default
{
    state_entry()
    {
    }

    // request controls & prime locked condition    
    on_rez(integer start_param)
    {
        llRequestPermissions(llGetOwner(), PERMISSION_TAKE_CONTROLS);
        locked = FALSE;
    }
    
    // if user accepts, trap control events and also allow them to pass on to the avatar for movement:
    // 
    // llTakeControls(integer controls, integer accept, integer pass_on);
    //
    // If (accept == (controls & input)), send input to object. If the boolean pass_on is TRUE, also send input to avatar.

    run_time_permissions(integer perm)
    {
        if(perm & (PERMISSION_TAKE_CONTROLS))
        {
            llTakeControls(CONTROL_FWD|
			   CONTROL_BACK|
			   CONTROL_RIGHT|
			   CONTROL_LEFT|
			   CONTROL_ROT_RIGHT|
			   CONTROL_ROT_LEFT|
			   CONTROL_UP|
			   CONTROL_DOWN,
			   TRUE, TRUE);
            // set timer to periodically check the time since the last control input
            llSetTimerEvent(1);
        }
    }
    
    // called any time a user moves.  release the damping if the avatar is locked.  reset the time since last movement.
    control(key id, integer level, integer edge)
    {
        if (locked)
        {
            llMoveToTarget(llGetPos(), 0);
            locked = FALSE;
            //llWhisper(0, "unlocked");            
        }
        llGetAndResetTime();
    }  
    
    // if the avatar is not already locked and it has been longer than the wait time since the last movement then lock the avatar
    timer()
    {
        if ((!locked) && (llGetTime() > LOCKWAIT))
        {
            llMoveToTarget(llGetPos(), 0.2);
            locked = TRUE;
            //llWhisper(0, "locked");            
        }
    }
}

Sapphire

Thanks, Sapphire, for your contribution to the common weal. Thanks also to those who explained why the LSL calls have legitimate purposes. Please understand, I wasn't calling for removal of the push but rather the non-consensual push.

And while I like the idea of "defense" objects, it does still seem strange that I need to actively protect myself against this nonsense. Can I teach a class sitting down? Proabably. Can I shop or give another AV a tour while sitting? A little harder. Why must I wear a shield in order to move freely around the "safe" parts of the world. I don't wear a bulletproof vest in RL, I rely on the legal system to make unprovoked assaults on me "costly" to the perpetrator. Have I been mugged in RL? Yes. On a weekly basis? no.

And I echo Eggy's sentiments about overly lenient enforcement toward intentional, premeditated griefers. I have been lead to believe that the LL stance is to try to "socialize" griefers before taking more assertive action; and some of the Liaisons are great at doing such. But there are some who do not wish to be socialized but rather enjoy griefing. In fact, the Tan gunman that I referred to above had been given a "talking to" by a Linden earlier that evening. He wasn't ignorant of community standards or potential penalties, he just thought it fun. Meanwhile I am a bit afraid that I shall suffer consequences for "abuse report" abuse.

Anyone who hasn't already been put to sleep by my rant is welcome to tell me to drop it

Don't drop it Mal, its a valid rant

I have not had too much grief directed at me thankfully, but the odd times I have been on the receiving end of deliberate griefing, it's been a toss-up between retaliating in kind (which really isnt my style) and filing an abuse report (which do seem half the time to be ineffectual). I see the two as mutually exlcusive really... If I fight back, I can't in good concience file abuse, as I'm just perpetuating it. It's what they want after all... a reaction. Every time, I have chosen the latter, file a report, and go somewhere they are not (even if I wanted to stay where I was, it wasnt worth the hassle).

After the last episode a few weeks back, I found myself working on a cage-gun. I had to stop myself... "WTF am I doing? In RL do I knock up an A-team special to deal out my judgement on the kids that throw stones at my house?". No, I tell the police, who can't do anything about it. Sigh.

Makes me feel rather powerless in-world and out.
Next time I get grief, my house-brain is going to get a new routine - an AV name-based griefer early warning system. Hopefully I'll get time to sit down before the attacks start lol.
(Maybe I'll share the script, and someone will want to keep a definative list of known active griefers.)

I don't know, that cage-gun idea seems pretty cool!

I don't think its wrong to get all A-Teaml on someone. Its SL, no one can actually get hurt. Well maybe if you flinch as an in-game projectile heads straight for your AV and you fall backwards off your chair.

I think the cage-gun might be a better way than filing an abuse report. They might then get the idea they are bugging you.

...and then report you for abuse.

Hmmm, well if they are on your land quickly change it to a damage allowing area, warn them, and cage them?

Is it possible to script something to send the AV back to their "home" location?