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Bin Laden Offers Truce

Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 13:16
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/593298A0-3C1A-4EB4-B29D-EA1A9678D922.htm

From: Osama bin Laden

"But what triggered my desire to talk to you is the continuous deliberate misinformation given by your President [George] Bush, when it comes to polls made in your home country which reveal that the majority of your people are willing to withdraw US forces from Iraq.

"We know that the majority of your people want this war to end and opinion polls show the Americans do not want to fight the Muslims on Muslim land, nor do they want Muslims to fight them on their [US] land.

"The new operations of al-Qaida has not happened not because we could not penetrate the security measures. It is being prepared and you'll see it in your homeland very soon"

"But Bush does not want this and claims that it is better to fight his enemies on their land rather than on American land.

"Bush tried to ignore the polls that demanded that he end the war in Iraq.

"In response to the substance of the polls in the US, which indicate that Americans do not want to fight Muslims on Muslim land, nor do they want Muslims to fight them on their land, we do not mind offering a long-term truce based on just conditions that we will stick to.

"We are a nation that Allah banned from lying and stabbing others in the back, hence both parties of the truce will enjoy stability and security to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, which were destroyed by war.

"In response to the substance of the polls in the US, which indicate that Americans do not want to fight Muslims ... we do not mind offering a long-term truce based on just conditions that we will stick to"

"There is no problem in this solution, but it will prevent hundreds of billions from going to influential people and war lords in America - those who supported Bush's electoral campaign - and from this, we can understand Bush and his gang's insistence on continuing the war."

"If your desire for peace, stability and reconciliation was true, here we have given you the answer to your call."
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I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Moss Talamasca
Serpent & Thistle
Join date: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 367
01-19-2006 13:26
This will not end well.
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
01-19-2006 13:26
The "withdraw US troops from Muslim lands and there'll be no trouble" thing has been stated many times before.

It won't make much difference though, because al Qaeda (such as it exists at all) isn't perceived by the administration as a threat to the US anyway, not physically. Therefore there is no bargaining position.
Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
01-19-2006 13:32
Hmmmmmm I dunno. Think we can trust him?

I say we at least bend his index finger back until he cries "uncle." THEN it is a truce.
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
01-19-2006 13:33
While it is interesting to note that there has surfaced another video from a-Q, the first in about a year I think, the content of the message is of no real concern. I'm not even sure what you would like us to comment about.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
01-19-2006 13:35
Sounds good to me but good luck winding down the U.S. meat grinder, er, military. It's chewed up it's first 100,000 and that's just its appetizer.

~Ulrika~
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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 13:39
see, this is my problem with our "war on terror" summed up nicely

From: Ordinal Malaprop
The "withdraw US troops from Muslim lands and there'll be no trouble" thing has been stated many times before.


"we have big guns so we will occupy whatever damn land we please" is our answer to this suggestion.

From: Ordinal Malaprop

It won't make much difference though, because al Qaeda (such as it exists at all) isn't perceived by the administration as a threat to the US anyway, not physically. Therefore there is no bargaining position.

and if al Qaeda is not considered a threat, why do we continue to give up personal liberties

wtf is wrong with our government when bin Laden, a mass murdered, speaks more truth than our leaders?

I thought this was a war on terror? but then again I was told we were in Iraq for WMDs as well

bin Laden is correct about the military industrial complex btw. look at the portfolios of those in the administration. you will see investments in "defense contractors" (arms manufacturers) who only make money when there is war

bin Laden may be evil, but if so, what does that make us?
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
01-19-2006 13:43
From: Mulch Ennui
wtf is wrong with our government when bin Laden, a mass murdered, speaks more truth than our leaders?


He's speaks truth when it suits him to do so.

WTF is wrong with people that grab at any bit of information if it meshes with their personal world view, no matter the source?
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
01-19-2006 13:44
We're just a different bad guy.
Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 13:45
From: Ordinal Malaprop
We're just a different bad guy.


agreed
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 13:55
From: Gabe Lippmann
He's speaks truth when it suits him to do so.

WTF is wrong with people that grab at any bit of information if it meshes with their personal world view, no matter the source?


if he is speaking the truth about the military industrial complex, why am I "grabbing at any bit"?

my concern is the justification for the bloodshed we have imposed on this world , and why it is continuing despite all evidence that were are being manipulated at every level

should i ONLY listen to what the US official talking points are, are shoudl a critical thinker look at all sides of the arguement.

I have heard this administrations explanations for years now, and all I find when I examine them are smoke and mirrors and distractions

I don't know the logical fallacies, but I would love someone to use them on our justification for the "war on terror," the "war on iraq," and hell, even the "war on drugs"

bin Laden is no hero, please understand, but we are firmly in the "2 wrongs" and "might makes right" camp, which is hardly an ethical position to be in

as bin Laden says, most people in the US want out. the muslims want out.

is your world better today than on 9/10/01?

just because we make a truce does not pardon bin Laden for his actions.

we call off our dogs on mulsims, the muslims call off their dogs on us, we continue to persue the architects in an international law enforcement capacity, as opposed to a military invasion of every muslim country on the map?

PS, we can't even try Saddam fairly, what part of "this has all been wrong" isn't adding up for you?
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Bill Diamond
when all else fails...x=8
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 98
01-19-2006 13:55
From: someone
Originally posted by Ordinal Malaprop
We're just a different bad guy.


Yay...It's the 'Blame-America-First' crowd!!!

Too bad we're the country everyone else comes to when they need to be bailed out.
Psyra Extraordinaire
Corra Nacunda Chieftain
Join date: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,533
01-19-2006 13:56
I've yet to read the article but I'll put 100L$ on a bet that the White House responded that they won't negotiate with terrorists.
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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 14:00
From: Bill Diamond
Yay...It's the 'Blame-America-First' crowd!!!

Too bad we're the country everyone else comes to when they need to be bailed out.


i am not blaming America

I am blaming our warmonger leaders who see killing as the only way to further their ideology and financial gain

most people don't like killing.

you better turn on Hannity so you can get some new "talking points", blame america 1st sounds really stupid

and if a child shits his pants, you blame the child

in other words, you find out who is responsible for the stinking mess and make an effort to correct lest you live your life in a shitty environment

or stick your head in the sand and say "since i am richer with bigger guns, I am correct" and deny responsibility in a representational government

are you saying we are 100% morally correct in all actions we have taken since 9/11/01?
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 14:01
From: Psyra Extraordinaire
I've yet to read the article but I'll put 100L$ on a bet that the White House responded that they won't negotiate with terrorists.



From: US Government

YOU STOLE MY POST


give the man L$100

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-01-19T205847Z_01_N19358261_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-BINLADEN-USA.xml&rpc=22
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I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
01-19-2006 14:01
From: Bill Diamond
Yay...It's the 'Blame-America-First' crowd!!!

Too bad we're the country everyone else comes to when they need to be bailed out.

Yay...It's the 'Kneejerk-You-Hate-America' crowd!!!
Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
01-19-2006 14:16
Mulch, your diatribes are truly something. The capacity to boil international politics down to simplistic terms is an art.

If you think the US Gov't is shady, then certainly you realize the problems with trying to work with bin Laden, the head of a terrorist group?

His recognition that there are people who profit from war is no great shakes and does not equate to bin Laden being a trustworthy individual. Brokering peace with bin Laden is not feasible. The setup of the al-Q network would almost certainly not allow that to happen. It is why most terrorist organizations continue after the aging heads cease to want to play the game anymore.

I wish you would take your concerns somewhere that might do some good. None of us are swaying anybody here. We haven't seen any new propaganda in a while. And yet we still bash each other needlessly. Perhaps you can email your local representative rather than infer that those of us who don't share your view of the State Of The Globe are just not capable of "adding it up".
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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 14:30
From: Gabe Lippmann
Mulch, your diatribes are truly something. The capacity to boil international politics down to simplistic terms is an art.


Thanks, It takes effort to remove the layers of years of bullshit clouding the issues.

From: Gabe Lippmann

If you think the US Gov't is shady, then certainly you realize the problems with trying to work with bin Laden, the head of a terrorist group?


No one says "let bin laden crash at my pad." I said prosecute him in a law enforcement context, not invade muslim countries. I am sick of hearing how many children we "accidently" blew up this week. (and no, "we got #748,998,923 in the deck" does not justify that)

From: Gabe Lippmann

His recognition that there are people who profit from war is no great shakes and does not equate to bin Laden being a trustworthy individual.


Agreed, but how come the fact that our leaders are heavily personally invested in making and selling weapons does not present a conflict of interest? How come the majority of the people in this country don't know this?

From: Gabe Lippmann

Brokering peace with bin Laden is not feasible. The setup of the al-Q network would almost certainly not allow that to happen. It is why most terrorist organizations continue after the aging heads cease to want to play the game anymore.


Much like how hawks continue to quote debunked info when trying to justify the bloodshed and quagmire of this administration...

I am not saying "bin Laden is right, he has the answer" but I am saying it is a point we can work from. the majority of the world does not think we should be there (including US citizens), yet there is no real exit strategy and nothing seems to be working there.

From: Gabe Lippmann

I wish you would take your concerns somewhere that might do some good. None of us are swaying anybody here.


Was a discussion in off topic. I am sorry it disturbed you so much to read it. it would not fit in "Land and Economy" forum

From: Gabe Lippmann

We haven't seen any new propaganda in a while. And yet we still bash each other needlessly. Perhaps you can email your local representative rather than infer that those of us who don't share your view of the State Of The Globe are just not capable of "adding it up".


1st off what makes you think I don't write (and call, and email, and publish letters in the paper) about my concerns. Problem is, I have Mary Bono as a Rep. Thats a whole nother topic.

I appricate you telling me to take a hike, but I do think i will stay

see, I have no exit strategy

mission accomplished
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
01-19-2006 14:40
From: Mulch Ennui
No one says "let bin laden crash at my pad." I said prosecute him in a law enforcement context, not invade muslim countries. I am sick of hearing how many children we "accidently" blew up this week. (and no, "we got #748,998,923 in the deck" does not justify that)


And how, exactly, do you propose we do that? Or anyone do that, for that matter?

From: Mulch Ennui
Agreed, but how come the fact that our leaders are heavily personally invested in making and selling weapons does not present a conflict of interest? How come the majority of the people in this country don't know this?


Conflict of interest? It's argueable, but I'll give you the point for the purposes of the post. However, it needs to be said...

Conflict of Interest != Proof of Wrongdoing
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Psyra Extraordinaire
Corra Nacunda Chieftain
Join date: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,533
01-19-2006 14:50


*spits suet across his work desk*
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Lizbeth Marlowe
The ORIGINAL "Demo Girl"
Join date: 7 May 2005
Posts: 544
01-19-2006 14:58
Am I the only one who noticed that paragraph 6 and 8 were repeats?

We cannot afford to negotiate with terrorists, period.
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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 15:33
From: Reitsuki Kojima
And how, exactly, do you propose we do that? Or anyone do that, for that matter?


I just heard on the radio that offering a truce is the honorable Muslim thing to do. sure it could be a PR ploy to keep Muslim opinion of him high, but it also offers a face saving exit strategy for both sides.

For the Muslims, if we were to act in a way consistent with the goals of pretty much the entire planet and leave Iraq, it allows them to see we are reasonable (as in not staying the course even when on the wrong course). For us, with the govts spin machine, it would not be hard to spin this into victory.

From: Fictitious Bush Speech

My Fellow Americans. For the past 5 years or so, we have been in a conflict unlike any other in history. Where as in World War 2, we had a surrender signed on the deck of our great military vessel, this war does not have such defined lines. So we have asked ourselves, how do we know when it is over.

For years now, the country, and even the world has been divided on US policy since the acts of 9/11. We have done our best to meet and defeat the enemy head on, in Afghanastan, and in Iraq.

Some mistakes were made, but we have defended Americah from attack succesfully since then. But as a leader, who has the lives of millions in his hands, I cannot continue killing both innocent Muslims, or US military personel. Our strategy has always been to shift responsibility for Iraqi security to the Iraqis, and now, according to our plans, that time has come.

And now bin Laden offers a truce. He claims that if we leave Iraq, al Qaeda will not attack America.

He has seen the might and fury of America, and he is crying uncle.

Osama bin Laden is a criminal. He murdered 3,000 Americans. for that, he will be hunted, and prosecuted. We do not negotiate with terrorists. Bin Laden will pay for his crimes, and we will nver let up.

But bin Ladens ties in Iraq are weak. We never intended to stay in Iraq after liberating the people from the tyrant. Therefore, in hopes that this marks the end of the bloodshed on the innocents of Iraq and our own children in the armed forces, we will continue our mission and immediatly begin pulling out troops and leaving the security of Iraq to the Iraqis.

Now Osama bin Laden is still a wanted man. He has committed a crime and he will pay when found. But the innocents have suffered enough.

Make no mistake, we are not backing down. We are subscribing to the culture of life that we promissed, and the goal of peace.

Al Qaeda knows we will hunt them down and hurt them if they attack again. They must continue hiding or face the justice for their crimes. But the rest of the world has suffered enough. Our goal is World Peace and we will do our best to obtain it.

If we are attacked again, we will respond as the mighty force that we are. But the price of even one innocent life is too high for us not to pursue our goal of world peace.

God Bless, and pray that peace will bloom in this world leading to a new harmony and prosperity for all living souls.
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
01-19-2006 15:38
From: Mulch Ennui
I... *snip*


I mean, how do you propose we, quote, "prosecute him in a law enforcement context"?

It's not exactly as easy as serving him an arrest warent and giving him a date to show up in court.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
01-19-2006 15:40
From: Reitsuki Kojima
I mean, how do you propose we, quote, "prosecute him in a law enforcement context"?

It's not exactly as easy as serving him an arrest warent and giving him a date to show up in court.


well it doesnt take 200,000 troops in the wrong country(s)
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
01-19-2006 15:42
This might be a fun time to read up on the time-honored tradition of Taqqiya, a lovely teaching that allows you to do things, such as offer a truce, to save your butt -- but allows you to break your word later.
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Broadly offensive.
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