<soapbox> Decent Writing Does Matter!

Is that soapbox big enough for me to join you on it?

There are two elided concepts here - to use a posh word and probably be attacked for it.

I don't think anyone has tried to say that the point of a good forum post, or any writing for that matter, is to communicate, ideally clearly, the point that you are trying to make.

The 'rules' of grammar and spelling are a tool to try and facilitate that. I use the term rules advisedly because they are subject to change and evolution, so they are more like partially emergent, partially conventional guidelines. There is room within these guidelines to express yourself cogently in a number of ways as well.

Most, but not all of us, accept that there are conditions such as dyslexia which can make spelling and grammar hard to use, and non-native speakers who might well use words differently to out expectation - both spelling, grammar and word choice rules, especially for prepositions are different in every language and I have yet to see one that is actually logical about it!

However, a clear, concise concept can come through 'bad' spelling and 'bad' grammar - I support dyslexic learners amongst other things in my work and proofread a 7 page essay with one yesterday. There were about 5 sentences over 7 pages that didn't end up being changed at least a little, but the essay was well structured and comprehensible, a testament (according to the student as well as my ego) to the work we've done on planning and structuring together.

Good grammar can also help you understand a woolier concept better, you're aware that the person is trying to express something they may not quite be able to pin down and put into words, and we all have those handwaving "um thingie" moments...

Confusing concepts and hard to read (not following the 'rules') most people give up, unless we're being paid not to, or we really, really want to know wtf they're trying to say.

The ESOL speakers probably score better on the clear concept - and although there's a wide range of ability, often score well on the grammar rules - lots of languages have much more rigid rules (and/or more consistently applied rules) than English so they can map to our grammar in a form which we might recognise as foreign, but is at least comprehensible with a little effort - something it would be nice to see from us all!

I disagree. And frankly, if I am trying to teach anything, it would be that good writing is in an individual's own self interest. The most powerful motivator in the world is self interest.

We're not children here. I can choose to feel angry because someone says illiterate writing is so much white noise, or I can go hmmmm... maybe I'd have a better chance of getting what want if I communicated better....*goes off to take a class, work through a self-help book, get a friend's help*. If you think good writing is all about being snooty, then having the benefit to you pointed out may change your mind.

Hey, Surreal.

I'll pop over to Chaos later and correct you on some of your building methods. How can you expect people in Second Life to take you seriously if you can't build properly?


I'm kidding!!!




But please, relax... Some people don't like writing.

I recently got an IM from a poster in world telling me I was a meanie because of my reply in her thread. I can only assume that she IMed everyone on the list since the response was uniformly negative. Here is the thread so you can get an idea for yourself:

/invalid_link.html

Now usually if someone brings the forums in world, I simply mute and go on, however, in this case I spent some time trying to help her understand why people responded like they did. Here is a person who (1) feels like they are good at listening and helping people and (2) feels they need to make a few $L. How different would the response have been if she had posted something like this:

Before:


After:
Is Second Life getting you down? Is your sweetie making you crazy? First life hitting some bumps, or do you just need a friendly ear? Send me an IM. I'm a good listener and people tell me I give excellent advice. Also, I have mad skills for helping people work through arguments and drama. I promise full confidentiality. At $L 150 per hour, you can't beat this for a bargain.

My version avoids several pitfalls. I never mention counseling, so all the licensing issues, etc. are negated. I've emphasized the benefit to the customer. I've turned the low cost into a desirable value. I've also used casual language. Which ad would you favor?

Heh Starax. I know you're a smarty pants, however, if you feel the urge to tangle with Ferran over any building methods in Chaos, I will send flowers.

I would happily sit at the feet of the maker of Cthulhu (who lives in a place of honor in our penthouse), feel free to drop over and give me a lesson anytime!!

Maybe they can start with law schools.

Surreal, I <3 you.

My entire educational background was based in English composition and literature. I had intentions of being a writer one day but I allowed the real-world demands of raising a family to interfere.

Instead, I began a career as a business manager. I discovered that the world of business composition was completely different than the world of literary prose. I had a boss who was free with his red felt-tip and sent most of my material back more than once for revision (the cruel, heartless bastard!). Eventually I mastered an art that I had not been prepared for -- surgical, concise business correspondence as opposed to leisurely, adjective-laden fiction. It was a major mental shift for me.

I was absolutely appalled at the number of intelligent, creative engineers and business people I met who were horrible communicators. We're talking about vocabulary as well as style -- I completely understand the business world's propensity for simple buzz words. These people don't have the time or desire to reinvent language every day. And their education does not prepare them for communicating in the real world. There is simply not room in the curriculum.

I submit that something similar has happened via the internet. Chat rooms favor those who are either fast typers or can distill ye olde English down from its formal style to abbreviations and acronyms. That chat room mentality, which began on IRC and AOL, went on to infect web boards.

We've reduced the language into a simile for fast food. The idea is to do something quickly rather than well. We are left with McEnglish in lieu of Macbeth.

Another poster's comment about ADHD and non-English speakers is a good one, although I think those examples are uncommon ones. My son is ADHD and can write pretty well when I chain him to his chair His sister is a straight-A student, and yet her emails look as bad as most AOL chat boards you've seen. Personally, I try to give people some leeway for such handicaps but also wish to note that most of the non-American forum posters I've seen around the web have mastered our language quite well -- it may be one of the things that attracted them to the board in the first place, otherwise they'd stay on the Japanese/German/Italian/etc language boards.

What was my point? Oh, yes! Surreal, I <3 you!

Um... your language? It started off as English, then you ruined it by changing words and their meanings.

Lewis

LOL!

I like your point about ADHD, etc. My son also has ADHD and he is an accomplished writer - provided you let him pick the subject! My sister is dyslexic, which has led her to be an excellent artist, but made picking up writing skills much harder. Hard does not equal impossible.

I'm actually in the opposite boat from you. My main background is in writing instructional materials such as online help where brief and concise are the watch words. In my current job, I have to write in a more chatty style and it's making me nuts! I would slash my wrists and smash my computer before I would ever write marketing... a girl has got to have standards.

Non-English speakers don't necessarily pepper their writing with elipses (...) for every pause, or spell "you" as "u" or completely ignore paragraphs. If they get the word order/plurals mixed up or misspell, it's still better than a lot of native English-speaking posters.

I think the issue is making an effort at writing well, rather than getting every comma in the right place.

The British didn't invent language. According to you, they ruined Latin.


It's hard to switch back and forth, IMO, because fiction (my pastime) requires more abstract thought. My best metaphors come from being dead-tired at 2 AM, half asleep and writing as if I'm dreaming My best business letters only come after four cups of strong black coffee.

I won't do marketing, either. It's like fiction only you're misleading people instead of entertaining them

Dare I add to this thread ?

First of all, I think Surreal has a valid point : when thoughts are well written, they tend to be read sooner and understood better. That is all she was trying to get across, and I happen to agree with her.

Second : there's no need for any one person to feel judged or belittled. Everyone has his/her own style, some need to be excellent writers, others do not. But I think whatever style you use, being clear about what you want to state is paramount if you really want to get results.

English is not my mother tongue, but being raised by a language teacher caused me to almost become a walking spell checker. I'm allergic to spelling mistakes. If I read a glossy the mistakes jump out to me. Ofcourse I make mistakes, we all do. But that fact does not lead to me being condescending on anyone who does not "follow my rules".. and I'm sure that is true for Surreal as well.

I drive people around me nuts if I point out to them what they have done wrong, but only if I'm asked to do that or if it is part of my responsibilities.
I don't fly around like an unguided projectile pointing at mistakes, and neither did Surreal.

Think about the proposal itself. If you choose to take it to heart, fine. If you choose to ignore it, fine as well. It's no law. But stop attacking Surreal for saying it.

Devy

I guess it's part of the everything's-OK-society we're living in.

Moved from Soapbox to Pontificating forum

Damn Resmods!!!

Yes, I understand what you are saying in this thread and I agree with it. However, you miss the point that many are making; namely that correcting people's writing is rarely done in a constructive way.

Typically when I see people commenting or correcting other people's posts it is:
1. An attempt at humor at the writer's expense
2. A vindictive act as revenge for a percieved wrong
3. A way to distract from the topic of conversation by ignoring the point of the post
4. An attempt to help, but done in a condescending or snarky way
5. A genuine offer of help

I can't say for sure, but I think most of your corrections fall into the 4 or 5 category. However, many people have been abused by replies in the 1-3 categories as well. Even if you genuinely want to help people communicate better you'll see many people reading it as 1-4 because honestly I don't think #5 shows up that often.

Maybe an IM would be better than a public flogging? Or is the idea of the public humiliation to educate others rather than the person adressed?

A forum is more like a long stretch of memos or notes than anything else. I suppose if you were going to have a lengthy post it would be in your best interest to organize it in such a way not to lose people.

But I think people can be rash to judge people's writing skills based solely on how they communicate on a forum, which isnt too far removed from online chat.

I never bother with a spell checker on the forums and I also dont bother worrying about my style or paragraphs or anything else. I just take a conversational tone.

Im going to have to side with Jake on this one. Unless someone is extremely poor at expressing ideas we can leave the style manual in the drawer.

I think this is one of murphy's laws. When I was in school I loved anything centered around writing. Any class where the grade relied on essays and papers was a class for me! I could snow my way through it all... write papers the night before they were due and hand in the first draft and still get good grades. Math, on the other hand, made me want to poke my eyes out with an eating utensil. I avoided it like the plague and never took a math class more advanced than algebra 2 ("Who's ever going to need this shit anyway?! hah!". Now in my adult life writing isn't a necessity but advanced algebra, geometry, and calculus would be so incredibly useful to me it's not even funny, and of course I don't know any of it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... kids, stay in school!

Oh! You've played with particle effects too, huh?

~sigh~

You give me too much credit. I can be as much of a bitch as anyone else and I have a few times used my writing skills to rip a poster a new one, which I guess would be #1. However, I have yet to turn down a request for #5.

I would assert that if you post on a public forum you are offering up your ideas and presentation for public judgement. In other words, your post is fair game provided the TOS is followed. If you're not willing to take the negative feedback along with the positive then you have unrealistic expectations of the medium.

Context is everything. If a poster is being an ass, then they may find a bit of red pixel coming their way. However, I can't imagine using those skills on someone who is obviously struggling or in a sad situation.

Does public exposure to ridicule (and praise - because you risk both everytime you open your mouth/post screen) serve a purpose? Oddly I have been thinking over this very idea lately. If I manage to clarify my thoughts I may throw out a new thread on a similar subject.

Ridicule/praise can certainly teach, but I think it has more to do with the fundamental human trait of establishing ways to identify who is a part of the tribe, and who is not. It is also a way for societies to indicate what is acceptable behavior and what is not. We see this most blatently in grade school. Just because it's a childhood behavior doesn't mean that it's not also an adult behavior - and serves an important social purpose. *shrug* Like I said, I'm mulling this over. It seems to me that sometimes the only way people learn is from negative input.

You are clearly superior to the original poster in that thread. Your reply in that thread was not condescending or mean in the slightest and obviously meant to teach the original poster how she could better herself by conforming to your standards. Bravo! You rule!


(or maybe, just maybe, if you were actually interested in helping this person you might have quietly and kindly IM'd her rather than leading the pack with ridicule and condescention)

I have to agree with this. A spelling mistake of mine was pointed out by someone who no longer posts in the forums, I think she was banned as she had a habit of belittling someone every time she posted. The spelling error was in an ad I had posted in the classified forum for a prefab house I made and coincidentally, or not so coincidentally, she also makes prefabs. Her message to me was belittling, condescending and rude. This only solidified my opinion about people who point out spelling mistakes. Happily though, she ended up ranting in General about how ads with spelling errors are unprofessional and people just laughed at her because she had made a few errors herself when she posted.

That being said, a post rife with errors does look lazy, but then I have to remind myself that not everyone was blessed with having the chance at a decent education. AOL talk drives me nuts.

I love forums with lots of good opinions on both sides. I find myself agreeing with one side and then the other.

It has definately given me some things to think over. My opinions have changed even since I first posted to this forum. I personally got two tools to use from reading along.

1. A renewed interest in being a little more careful in my posting.

2. The idea that sometimes it is kinder to take something to IM or not reply. I really hadn't thought of taking something to IM. I am mostly posting here from work where I don't have in world access. (at least I think that is the way it works.)

I really appreciate the posts on both sides of the issue.

I always get a chuckle from people who accuse other people of being judgemental while doing it themselves.



I think you're extrapolating an awful lot from one sentence.

Yes, my reply was snide. It was meant to be snide. The post was a tard. Leading the pack? I didn't post first, nor did I post as extensively as some others. I suppose I could thank you for thinking that my one-sentence post was that persuasive.

You've pretty much missed the point of this post. I don't give a rat's ass about anyone conforming to my standards. I am pointing out that good writing skills help people get what they want. I used her post as an example because it is a good one. She didn't achieve her goal.

Oh, and pot... to use your own words: If you were interested in help me be a kinder, gentler poster you might quietly IM me and offer your help rather than posting sarcastic judgements.