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Is Jesus REALY the only way??? |
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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11-09-2005 13:58
His whole point was 'live this way and your life will be good' I don't see much of a difference between that and this: "No one comes to [it] except through [my way of enlightenment]." Was Buddha saying, "There are other possible good ways, but this is my good way, and if you live this way, your life will be good"? If that's the case, then I stand corrected for that one quote. -Ghoti _____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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11-09-2005 14:42
Hooray!  We get to put cinnamon in our breakfast oatmeal.  It's the Quaker picker-upper. Not only do you get to put cinnamon on your oatmeal, you get to do it Liberally! (I shouldn't joke too much I used to attend services at a UU congregation and they had close ties with the local Society of Friends. Quakers some pretty cool people.) _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Liona Clio
Angel in Disguise
Join date: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,500
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11-09-2005 14:47
Not only do you get to put cinnamon on your oatmeal, you get to do it Liberally! (I shouldn't joke too much I used to attend services at a UU congregation and they had close ties with the local Society of Friends. Quakers some pretty cool people.) Flock 'em if they can't take a joke. Overt religious people take themselves too seriously, if you ask me. Besides, they call themsleves Quakers...they're just asking to be made into a punchline. _____________________
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously have certainly come to a middle."
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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11-09-2005 14:48
I also think it's relevant that he was talking to a large group of Jews, and said "No one comes to my father but through me", meaning, "You can't continue to follow the laws in Leviticus(stoning disobedient children, not eating shellfish or pork, ect), that is not the path to enlightment, I have a new path to show you." I often wondered about that. If Jesus nullified all those OT laws, why do christians point to them when they want to condem homosexuals? _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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11-09-2005 14:58
Flock 'em if they can't take a joke. Overt religious people take themselves too seriously, if you ask me. Besides, they call themsleves Quakers...they're just asking to be made into a punchline. Someone posted a link to a good FAQ in another thread. (erm. here: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/Quaker-faq/ ) Somehow I can't picture them getting overly upset by that. _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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11-09-2005 15:08
Actually if you study the culture out a bit, you find out that this is actually meant to be some what of a joke. The way, the truth, and the life is a slang way of describing the temple for Jews in this period. The way is the nickname of the altar outside the courtyard that allows you to enter the truth where there is a basin of water made of mirrors that allows you to clean yourself as you look at yourself. If you are a priest you can enter the life which is the holy place only priests are allowed into. If you look at the context, you will see why this makes sense. This is also where he talks about his body being destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days. Modern day christians miss alot of the subtleties in the bible that would only be understood by someone that either studies that culture or is a part of it. This is a joke in the same way as the parable about spreading seeds is considered to be a joke. It is an outrageous statement that seems exagerated like a farmer who just throws his seeds around randomly. Now much more interesting than all of this is the Fox's book of martyrs where we learn just how many christians have been killed by christians. Yes, and the comment about a rich man standing as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel has to go through the eye of a needle wasn't actually about the eye of a needle. The phrase referred to a gate in Jerusalem which was a little narrower than most. So the story meant that a rich man might have to squeeze a bit, but he would still get in. Yeah.  _____________________
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Liona Clio
Angel in Disguise
Join date: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,500
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11-09-2005 15:18
Someone posted a link to a good FAQ in another thread. (erm. here: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/Quaker-faq/ ) Somehow I can't picture them getting overly upset by that. Indeed! Y'know, the more I read about the Quaker beliefs, the more I feel aligned with them. Empathsis on living good lives, non-judgemental, and surprisingly free of ritual trappings. Not that rituals are bad, but I agree wit hthe sentiment that the ritual itself becomes more important than the values behind the ritual. Quakerism. It's the right thing to do...and a tasty way to do it! Now if it weren't for my belief that all religious organizations are in the end evil...  _____________________
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously have certainly come to a middle."
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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11-09-2005 15:34
Not trying to 'correct' you per se - my interpretation isn't authoritative enough to be correcting anybody.
What I see - Buddha isn't offering quite the ah... benefits package that Jesus does, re: afterlife - not by a long shot. But the deductible is a lot lower also, we might say. It's much more a basis for *this* life - although there are many forms of Buddhism. Tibetan -vs- Zen might be a good examples of wildly disparate interpretations. Yet I could see someone being generally Buddhist and atheist; or Buddhist and Christian without much difficulty. Some things are oddly not an issue for some: Zen Buddhism requires a master for guidance, yet I have seen many people claim they are Zen Buddhists without ever having been near one. Interpretations at play again. I don't see much of a difference between that and this: "No one comes to [it] except through [my way of enlightenment]." Was Buddha saying, "There are other possible good ways, but this is my good way, and if you live this way, your life will be good"? If that's the case, then I stand corrected for that one quote. -Ghoti _____________________
 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon! |
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Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
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11-09-2005 15:35
Not just squeeze a bit. The idea was that the rich man would have to take many of the goods off of his camel in order to get in--to be willing to cast off riches and travel light.
In the light of this, it has always struck me how so many christians see wealth as god rewarding them, as if god cared about wealth. *scratches her head and chuckles* Yes, and the comment about a rich man standing as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel has to go through the eye of a needle wasn't actually about the eye of a needle. The phrase referred to a gate in Jerusalem which was a little narrower than most. So the story meant that a rich man might have to squeeze a bit, but he would still get in. Yeah. _____________________
Events are everyone's business.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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11-09-2005 15:47
Hmm... I always thought that the word 'camel' in that phrase was a bad translation of a word meaning 'thick rope' in Hebrew.
Am I wrong? _____________________
Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon! |
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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11-09-2005 16:23
Quakerism. It's the right thing to do...and a tasty way to do it! It also helps to lower bad cholesterol. healthy <3 Now if it weren't for my belief that all religious organizations are in the end evil... I'm with you on that _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Seldon Metropolitan
Zen Taxi Driver
Join date: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 376
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11-09-2005 16:40
jesus is the only way....to really good chicken.
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 17:12
I don't see much of a difference between that and this: "No one comes to [it] except through [my way of enlightenment]." Was Buddha saying, "There are other possible good ways, but this is my good way, and if you live this way, your life will be good"? If that's the case, then I stand corrected for that one quote. -Ghoti Actually Buddha said a number of times that the Middle Way was the most skillful, but he didn't claim it was the only way. He never promised that if you followed the Middle Way your life would be good, just that you would not be subject to duhkha/suffering/dissatisfaction and would escape the circle of rebirth. Since there were Buddhas before the historical Buddha, who gained enlightenment well before the Middle Way was taught in India, there must be other ways to enlightenment. |
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 17:20
Yes, and the comment about a rich man standing as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel has to go through the eye of a needle wasn't actually about the eye of a needle. The phrase referred to a gate in Jerusalem which was a little narrower than most. So the story meant that a rich man might have to squeeze a bit, but he would still get in. Yeah. Really, which gate? I've heard this before, but oddly no one ever mentions which gate it could have been. Jerusalem, by modern standards, was a small town with only a few gates. And not a one of them is called the eye of the needle. Maybe Jesus meant just what he said here. I know it's uncomfortable for many people to think, but just maybe Jesus was really talking about rich people going to hell. Especially if you read the only book of the Bible written by some one who actually knew Jesus, the Book of James talks a lot about the poor. Of course when I say "knew Jesus" I mean when he was alive on earth before his ascension into heaven. |
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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
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11-09-2005 17:29
Indeed! Y'know, the more I read about the Quaker beliefs, the more I feel aligned with them. Empathsis on living good lives, non-judgemental, and surprisingly free of ritual trappings. Not that rituals are bad, but I agree wit hthe sentiment that the ritual itself becomes more important than the values behind the ritual. yes _____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/ |
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Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
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11-09-2005 18:10
....It's Written In Our Hearts. AND PARTY ON, D00DZ! Excellent!   _____________________
Don't Worry, Be Happy - Meher Baba
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Dark Korvin
Player in the RL game
Join date: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 769
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11-10-2005 01:50
Yes, and the comment about a rich man standing as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel has to go through the eye of a needle wasn't actually about the eye of a needle. The phrase referred to a gate in Jerusalem which was a little narrower than most. So the story meant that a rich man might have to squeeze a bit, but he would still get in. Yeah. Exactly, Jesus was the master of hyperbole. That wacky Jesus. |
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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11-10-2005 03:04
Not just squeeze a bit. The idea was that the rich man would have to take many of the goods off of his camel in order to get in--to be willing to cast off riches and travel light. In the light of this, it has always struck me how so many christians see wealth as god rewarding them, as if god cared about wealth. *scratches her head and chuckles* The point of my posting, which perhaps wasn't too clear, was that Jesus was making an unequivocal statement that rich people will never be able to enter his kingdom, which I take to be heaven. In the west we are all rich people, in terms of the rest of the world. So it seems to me that Jesus has condemned virtually every last one of us to eternal damnation. _____________________
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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11-10-2005 03:05
Hmm... I always thought that the word 'camel' in that phrase was a bad translation of a word meaning 'thick rope' in Hebrew. Am I wrong? No, as I understand it you are right. Which makes the comment even more unequivocal. _____________________
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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11-10-2005 03:07
Really, which gate? I've heard this before, but oddly no one ever mentions which gate it could have been. Jerusalem, by modern standards, was a small town with only a few gates. And not a one of them is called the eye of the needle. Maybe Jesus meant just what he said here. I know it's uncomfortable for many people to think, but just maybe Jesus was really talking about rich people going to hell. Especially if you read the only book of the Bible written by some one who actually knew Jesus, the Book of James talks a lot about the poor. Of course when I say "knew Jesus" I mean when he was alive on earth before his ascension into heaven. My 'yeah' and the rolling eyes were meant to convey scepticism. Yes, I agree with what you say. _____________________
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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11-10-2005 05:33
What I see - Buddha isn't offering quite the ah... benefits package that Jesus does, re: afterlife - not by a long shot. But the deductible is a lot lower also, we might say. It's much more a basis for *this* life Ahhh, I see what you are saying. Thanks for the explanation. I do not know enough about Buddhism (I promise to read some books on it if anyone suggests the 'good ones'). I think my point is still vaild though, that many religions offer up what they see as the one and only way to enlightenment/heaven/a happy life. It was not just Jesus that offered up the 'one and only way'. It even extends into modern times. Hell, I'd bet David Koresh had his followers believing his way was the only way... We know Jim Jones had his people convinced enough to die for him (mmmmm Kool-aid), not to mention Heaven's Gate or Aum Shinrikyo. That 'one and only way' is a strong meme once you get it past a person's defenses. -Ghoti _____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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