Second Life Forums Archive - Mulchelfish(TM): Linden to English Translator

Mulch Ennui

15 Minutes are Over

Join date: 22 May 2005

Posts: 2,607

11-29-2005 01:12

Welcome to Mulchelfish (TM) Beta, where you can translate simple Linden Phrases and Quotes to English.

Since I am the curator of the Linden Bear Museum, I have spent far too much time surrounded by Linden bears, and have begun to hear voices. Hearing said voices has allowed me to understand far more "Linden speak" than the average avatar.

So I decided to put my knowledge to work for the community and have developed the beta release of Mulchelfish (TM).

Since Mulchelfish (TM) is still in beta, it has a few limitations. Any mentions of Havok 2, Mono, or Html on a Prim are likely to redirect you to a Random users blog.

Also, Mulchelfish (TM) works best in small chunks, so please no, New World Notes or Town Hall Transcripts.

Snippets are fine, as long as the source can be referenced. Also be aware that this is a beta so not everything can be translated and some bizarre results have been observed.

Let's start with a recent quote by Robin Linden that seems to have been misunderstood by some people. The comment is in regard to the threads here and here.

From: Robin Linden

If someone creates something (including Lindens) and makes it modifiable and transferable, then it not all that surprising that someone else might decide to take advantage of that opening and try to make money on something they didn't create.

Unfortunately there's not much we can do in this case, even if we find the behavior to be unethical. The permissions allow the copying and the selling.

It's clear that there's a hole or two in the system -- we need a permissions option that allows transfer but not resale for those who want to make things that can be given away no charge. That's what I'll focus on.

I'm going to close this thread, as I believe all the arguments, pro and con, have been made.

TRANSLATION ENGAGED:

From: Robin Linden

If someone creates something (including Lindens) and makes it modifiable and transferable, then it not all that surprising that someone else might decide to take advantage of that opening and try to make money on something they didn't create.

Human scum is human scum and there is a reason that your doors have locks on them.

From: Robin Linden

Unfortunately there's not much we can do in this case, even if we find the behavior to be unethical.

We don't yet have a solution in place to deal with these bottom feeders, and yes, they are truly the lowest form of life in SL.

From: Robin Linden

The permissions allow the copying and the selling.

If you make something and release it into the wild, no telling what some loser is going to do to profit off of your hard work.

From: Robin Linden

It's clear that there's a hole or two in the system -- we need a permissions option that allows transfer but not resale for those who want to make things that can be given away no charge.

We screwed up and have now risked killing the goodwill of people who make freebies, which are an important component of retaining newbies in SL.

From: Robin Linden

That's what I'll focus on.

I'm pissed about these parasites as well, and I personally will use my influence as Senior Vice President to try to implement a solution and fast!

From: Robin Linden

I'm going to close this thread, as I believe all the arguments, pro and con, have been made.

I've looked the other way for as long as I can while you publicly shamed the perps in hundreds of posts. I do have a job to do. Consider me the cop who knocks the crooks head on the car in the way in. I will the leave the threads up so you can link it should these people try this crap again

Please also see http://wm.eastbaymedia-c2.speedera.net/wm.eastbaymedia-c2/eb2/10.7.05-1clip.wmv at the 00:49:18 and 01:16:00 mark

I hope you enjoy Mulchelfish (TM) Beta

_____________________

I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/

Kris Ritter

paradoxical embolism

Join date: 31 Oct 2003

Posts: 6,627

11-29-2005 01:24

Thing is, that's all very well and good but as we all know, Lindens included, there have been (and remain) numerous permissions exploits which mean to say that things are out there with permissions that WERE NOT INTENDED by the creator.

We also know the client has been hacked at least once and a significant amount of commercial code released. I know of AT LEAST two items in SL that are direct descendents of this stolen code.

So what? tough shit? Yeah, we know it's only got those perms cuz it was ripped off due to a bug in our software, but, well, them's the breaks.

Actually yes. That is Linden Labs stance. And it's fucking disgusting. They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. They know full well what products are out there that are stolen or have the wrong perms because offenders have been AR'd multiple times by multiple people.

So there HAS to be some protection against this - you can't just say 'if the perms say it's ok then it's ok' because it simply isn't that black and white. Especially with SL being as flakey and easy to hack as it is.

Not to mention that creators should have some say about what happens to their creations REGARDLESS of the permissions. A lot of people WANT to make their stuff modifiable and copyable to HELP people learn. That doesn't mean to say that they are giving free license for people to profit from it.

If LL are unwilling to do anything about morally corrupt fucktards like JB who are selling on stolen items and items completely against the creators wishes, then I guess we'll have to do it ourselves, right? And do LL REALLY want that?

The very simplest thing they need to do is what we've been talking about for ages and what Robin touches on above - add a 'cannot be resold' or 'transfer for free only' type toggle or something of it's kind to objects. At least give us SOME power over our creations if you're going to do fuck all about assholes like you-know-who. It's good to see they are at least thinking about it.

Selador Cellardoor

Registered User

Join date: 16 Nov 2003

Posts: 3,082

11-29-2005 03:41

The question is a simple one. Do Linden Lab wish to remove those guilty of theft, or are they happy to allow Second Life to turn into a den of thieves?

_____________________

Nolan Nash

Frischer Frosch

Join date: 15 May 2003

Posts: 7,141

11-29-2005 04:02

I am disgusted by this crap.

All of it. From them not doing anything about freebie sellers, to broken perms, to exploited perms, to code leaked on the preview grid.

I have no clue what they meant by "IP rights" when they "gave" them to us. In hindsight, I think it was just clever marketing to get us all giddy <account retention> and to get us go tell our friends "you have IP rights in SL!!!" <new accounts>.

They're obviously not any type of real world IP rights, because they are trumped by exploits, faulty perms, and fucking scumbags who take items intended for newbies and then sell them to newbies for 100's of L$, and LL says "Oh well, not our problem".

Bottom line is - you ought not claim your customers have "IP rights" when your software does not support it because of faults and shortcomings, AND you do nothing to protect those "rights" you "gave" them.

Sometimes, promotional items are given out in RL. One is not allowed to turn around and take that item, copy it, and distribute, just because the abilty to do so exists. Free, purchased, or otherwise, IP rights as set forth by the creator/distributor generally do not allow for it, and certainly don't if not specified.

In other words, "IP rights" in SL are a sham.

_____________________

“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit

Mulchelfish(TM): Linden to English Translator
Mulch Ennui 15 Minutes are Over Join date: 22 May 2005 Posts: 2,607	11-29-2005 01:12 Welcome to Mulchelfish (TM) Beta, where you can translate simple Linden Phrases and Quotes to English. Since I am the curator of the Linden Bear Museum, I have spent far too much time surrounded by Linden bears, and have begun to hear voices. Hearing said voices has allowed me to understand far more "Linden speak" than the average avatar. So I decided to put my knowledge to work for the community and have developed the beta release of Mulchelfish (TM). Since Mulchelfish (TM) is still in beta, it has a few limitations. Any mentions of Havok 2, Mono, or Html on a Prim are likely to redirect you to a Random users blog. Also, Mulchelfish (TM) works best in small chunks, so please no, New World Notes or Town Hall Transcripts. Snippets are fine, as long as the source can be referenced. Also be aware that this is a beta so not everything can be translated and some bizarre results have been observed. Let's start with a recent quote by Robin Linden that seems to have been misunderstood by some people. The comment is in regard to the threads here and here. From: Robin Linden If someone creates something (including Lindens) and makes it modifiable and transferable, then it not all that surprising that someone else might decide to take advantage of that opening and try to make money on something they didn't create. Unfortunately there's not much we can do in this case, even if we find the behavior to be unethical. The permissions allow the copying and the selling. It's clear that there's a hole or two in the system -- we need a permissions option that allows transfer but not resale for those who want to make things that can be given away no charge. That's what I'll focus on. I'm going to close this thread, as I believe all the arguments, pro and con, have been made. TRANSLATION ENGAGED: From: Robin Linden If someone creates something (including Lindens) and makes it modifiable and transferable, then it not all that surprising that someone else might decide to take advantage of that opening and try to make money on something they didn't create. Human scum is human scum and there is a reason that your doors have locks on them. From: Robin Linden Unfortunately there's not much we can do in this case, even if we find the behavior to be unethical. We don't yet have a solution in place to deal with these bottom feeders, and yes, they are truly the lowest form of life in SL. From: Robin Linden The permissions allow the copying and the selling. If you make something and release it into the wild, no telling what some loser is going to do to profit off of your hard work. From: Robin Linden It's clear that there's a hole or two in the system -- we need a permissions option that allows transfer but not resale for those who want to make things that can be given away no charge. We screwed up and have now risked killing the goodwill of people who make freebies, which are an important component of retaining newbies in SL. From: Robin Linden That's what I'll focus on. I'm pissed about these parasites as well, and I personally will use my influence as Senior Vice President to try to implement a solution and fast! From: Robin Linden I'm going to close this thread, as I believe all the arguments, pro and con, have been made. I've looked the other way for as long as I can while you publicly shamed the perps in hundreds of posts. I do have a job to do. Consider me the cop who knocks the crooks head on the car in the way in. I will the leave the threads up so you can link it should these people try this crap again Please also see http://wm.eastbaymedia-c2.speedera.net/wm.eastbaymedia-c2/eb2/10.7.05-1clip.wmv at the 00:49:18 and 01:16:00 mark I hope you enjoy Mulchelfish (TM) Beta _____________________ I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours. http://forums.secondcitizen.com/
Kris Ritter paradoxical embolism Join date: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 6,627	11-29-2005 01:24 Thing is, that's all very well and good but as we all know, Lindens included, there have been (and remain) numerous permissions exploits which mean to say that things are out there with permissions that WERE NOT INTENDED by the creator. We also know the client has been hacked at least once and a significant amount of commercial code released. I know of AT LEAST two items in SL that are direct descendents of this stolen code. So what? tough shit? Yeah, we know it's only got those perms cuz it was ripped off due to a bug in our software, but, well, them's the breaks. Actually yes. That is Linden Labs stance. And it's fucking disgusting. They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. They know full well what products are out there that are stolen or have the wrong perms because offenders have been AR'd multiple times by multiple people. So there HAS to be some protection against this - you can't just say 'if the perms say it's ok then it's ok' because it simply isn't that black and white. Especially with SL being as flakey and easy to hack as it is. Not to mention that creators should have some say about what happens to their creations REGARDLESS of the permissions. A lot of people WANT to make their stuff modifiable and copyable to HELP people learn. That doesn't mean to say that they are giving free license for people to profit from it. If LL are unwilling to do anything about morally corrupt fucktards like JB who are selling on stolen items and items completely against the creators wishes, then I guess we'll have to do it ourselves, right? And do LL REALLY want that? The very simplest thing they need to do is what we've been talking about for ages and what Robin touches on above - add a 'cannot be resold' or 'transfer for free only' type toggle or something of it's kind to objects. At least give us SOME power over our creations if you're going to do fuck all about assholes like you-know-who. It's good to see they are at least thinking about it.
Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082	11-29-2005 03:41 The question is a simple one. Do Linden Lab wish to remove those guilty of theft, or are they happy to allow Second Life to turn into a den of thieves? _____________________
Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141	11-29-2005 04:02 I am disgusted by this crap. All of it. From them not doing anything about freebie sellers, to broken perms, to exploited perms, to code leaked on the preview grid. I have no clue what they meant by "IP rights" when they "gave" them to us. In hindsight, I think it was just clever marketing to get us all giddy <account retention> and to get us go tell our friends "you have IP rights in SL!!!" <new accounts>. They're obviously not any type of real world IP rights, because they are trumped by exploits, faulty perms, and fucking scumbags who take items intended for newbies and then sell them to newbies for 100's of L$, and LL says "Oh well, not our problem". Bottom line is - you ought not claim your customers have "IP rights" when your software does not support it because of faults and shortcomings, AND you do nothing to protect those "rights" you "gave" them. Sometimes, promotional items are given out in RL. One is not allowed to turn around and take that item, copy it, and distribute, just because the abilty to do so exists. Free, purchased, or otherwise, IP rights as set forth by the creator/distributor generally do not allow for it, and certainly don't if not specified. In other words, "IP rights" in SL are a sham. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit

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Mulchelfish(TM): Linden to English Translator