How do you feel about discriminatory practices against religion?

I think that businesses should be able to either discriminate against EVERYTHING, OR NOTHING except how well they do their job. Anything else is inequality.

Heh, you're on a tear tonight

In at-will states, with the exception of a few categories (religion, race, national origin and the like) employers can do exactly that. Don't like the color of your employee's hair? Fire 'em. Don't like the football team they root for? Fire 'em!

Where I live, there's a company that began firing people for smoking anytime, anywhere, even after-hours in their own house. That sure as hell caused a stink, but legally the company was within their rights.

I don't like that, but I don't see it as abominable as smoking is a choice someone makes.

Firing for something that has nothing to do with a person's choice (race, national origin) is rightfully illegal, imo. Sexual orientation should be added to that list.

Religion... is a gray area. Yep, religion is a choice. Still seems like a crummy thing to do, however.

How's that for a non-answer answer?

I wish I could make the answers in the polls longer.

The thing that gets me about a business is when they say they don't discriminate against religion, and then tell people they can't wear any religious garb, like crosses, turbans, having religious posters or symbols in their cubicles, etc., and then tell people they have to look a certain way that goes against many religions, like shaving a beard and other such things.

I personally tilt more towards the idea of businesses not being able to discriminate against anything other than whether people can do the job, but to actually enforce that would be extremely treacherous--so, I think that the complete opposite would be just as equal, where employers can discriminate against anything they want, quite literally. I'd prefer the non-discriminatory thing, but I'd settle for full discrimination as well.

I would think that could be challenged in court with a good likelihood of winning? I remember hearing of similar court cases. The rule, I think, is reasonable accomodation of sincerely held beliefs. As was explained to me, you don't even need to have a clergy member stand up in court and say "This is what we believe." As long as they are *your* sincerely held beliefs, they count.

That is incredible (and kind of scary)! In Australia, the employer would be prosecuted for any form of discrimination that didn't directly relate to the nature of the work performed. Worksites can be made non-smoking, but preventing a person from smoking in their private time? Just....wow!

In Oz there are protected attributes that cannot be used as a basis for discrimination, including gender, sexuality, etc. but also religious and political affiliation, (non-relevant) criminal record and transgender status. So a fraudster could not become a bank manager, but a drug-dealer or murderer? Sure!

I had no idea things were so open in the States. Even as an employer I like the Australian approach, it is clear and more-or-less fair. All I care about is how well my staff do their jobs, not what they look like, what they believe, or who they associate with in their own times.

But then, I am *probably* the only senior exec/director of a large company in my country who is a fur...

Edit: PS I voted for item two...

I do wish it was more like the way you describe it being in Australia here.

Here in the states, or at least in Washington, Oregon, and California, I'd say that the ratio goes something like this as far as the dress code for businesses for men (let me also say that these percentages are based on my observations, not on any actual studies, which I've not been able to find anywhere):

70% of businesses want men to have short hair--it's gotten a little better than 15 years ago where I'd put it more around 80%.

65% of businesses won't accept a beard at all, and out of the ones that do out of this percentage, it must not be any longer than a centimeter, and has to look perfectly groomed.

90% of businesses won't accept a long beard at all.

98% of businesses expect people to not have any B.O. whatsoever, to the point where if someone was working directly under your armpit with your arms raised, they should either smell cologne, deodorant scent, or nothing at all.

95% of businesses would find a turban or one of those little Jewish hats I forget the name of to be completely unacceptable

65% of businesses expect one to dress "professionally"--slacks or dockers, a polo shirt or a dress shirt, and non-tennis-shoes or non-sandles.

Then you have office jobs--where 90% of businesses expect a suit and tie, clean shaven, no religious garb whatsoever.

Then there's the pre-employment drug tests that 80% of businesses require (although I don't have to worry about that anymore since I've been clean).

The 70% of businesses that require personality tests that test how someone thinks--if you view things with a lot of gray area and believe in cause and effect instead of wrong and right, good and bad, you need to lie to answer the questions if you actually want to get the job. It's basically a test to see whether you think like a Christian (or other bible or koran based belief) or not, and since they're not allowed to directly discriminate against one's religion, this is their alternative.

Then there's all the businesses that can check your credit rating--if you have poor credit, they can refuse to give you employment.

Isn't that just lovely?

The UK is pretty much like Australia.

But these days if you go for a job interview, and you don't get the job, you might not got any feedback as to why.

A friend in a recruitment company told me that a guy with a percing didn't get a job for that reason, and thats what they told him in the feedback. So he sued the company and won £10,000 for discrimination.

I think that is just going to far.

The athletic director at the school where I coach football (american) tried to block me from hiring one of my assistant coaches because he has large visible tattoos all over his body. He had a coniption fit when I showed him my tattoos (Globe and Anchor on my right bicep and the names of my wife and kids on my other one) and I got my assistant coach hired. I can't stand people who think that tattoos = bad person. Thats one of a long list of pet peeves of mine. I know its not religion based discrimination but oh well.

Much of it depends on the type of job you're talking about. Long beards and a turban are going to be difficult if you need to wear a cleanroom suit 8 hours a day. If you work with the public, then maintaining a particular corporate "image" could requie a certain amount of uniformity (within reason). Also, if the work requires close teamwork its important that everyone on the team "clicks" together. As much as I would like to be tolerant of all things, sometimes you have to compromise while in the workplace. I also think that companies that accomodate a wide range of cultural values send a positive message to their customers.

All decisions have consequences, own up to the decisions you make and don't blame others. (this goes for individuals as well as corporations)

THat company could still have been sued if someone had wisened up and taken them to court on the grounds that addiction to cigarettes is an illness.

My company tried to railroad me early after my first promotion based on me wearing fingernail polish. THey also went after one of my friends for having electric blue hair. I took it all the way up the HR chain to the VP of HR saying that I would stop wearing fingernail polish if all the women did too, and that my friend would stop dying his hair as long as black women were not allowed to wear wigs with bright colors as a part of them.

THat made it a sexual and racial descrimination issue. One that powderkegs if they actually did tell the women and african americans they couldn't do something like that anymore.

You can work around at-will very easily, you just have to think of how to make it cost the company money to do something about it.

Edit: BTW, Lorelei, religion is one of the protected classes. I agree sexual orientation should be, but that's only in some states.

Yet in some at-will states, the employee may then file civil suit for wrongful termination - and receive awards of damages for not merely lost pay, but also emotional and psychological - unless the employer has documented that they had cause to terminate.

Just because it's not criminal to fire people because you don't like their football team, doesn't mean it's legal.

I've always found people who turn their cubicle into a shrine to their deity of choice to be very off-putting. If I have to be a team with others in a work environment I'd rather not have people going out of their way to emphasize our differences. I think it's very inappropriate in a work environment. Were I an employer I most definitely would discourage that kind of behavior. I'd have nothing against people wearing an unobtrusive cross pendant or similar but I wouldn't be happy about prayer circles in the break room or devotionals pinned up on the bulletin board next to the water cooler. People should be at work to work, not evangelize to their coworkers.

I've personally had people from most of the major religions and philosophies working in a place I've managed, for years.

Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindi, Buddhists, and... in one case I think it was a flavour of pagan, I'm not sure.

ALL of them found me incredibly tolerant; I let them come and go for prayers, shift their work schedules, whatever. Not hard for me to do because it was a professional staff, but hey, I did it.

To be honest, most of the folk that asked for Islamic prayer times pretty much blew it off in favour of working like everyone else. I saw all sorts of violations of personal code, such as meat-eating or snacking on ham - did I care? Not in the least, but it made me smile.


Yet for all my tolerance, I like the way United States companies define 'at will' employees.

Freedom goes both ways - we are 'at will' employers too. Employees can walk out at any time simply because they didn't like *me* or my tattoo/religion &c. And not give a reason.

So in spite of my incredible personal tolerance, I don't ever want legislation to tell me that I have to tolerate religion X. Especially if that religion says I'm evil.

The hell if someone's sacrificing chickens at my company, I don't care *what* the reason claimed.

ok let me get this out first, I am not racist AT ALL!! Now back to the story

There are some teachers and adminstrators I have to put up with due to affirmative action that wouldn't last a week based on merit. They know it too and, I think, revel in it. They've adopted what I call the "lil jon" mentality, where the world owes them something because they are black. This irritates me to no end because I know if I was that slack in my duties I'd get canned. I think affirmative action was a good idea back in say 1960. Now it has gotten to the point where people take advantage of it.

I know this will offend someone but, oh well. Its my opinion.

posted to the wrong poll Billybob

DAMNIT!!!! last time I use multiple tabs for forums

Well, here (Michigan) at least, it is.

Interestingly, Michigan is the only state in the nation where obesity is a protected trait. Can't fire someone for being a fatty. (*whew!*)

Corv: I know religion is protected. In my almost-gone-to-bed sorta way, I was attempting to distinguish something like religion (a choice one makes) from race (something your born with). Even though religion is a choice, I still think it should be specifically protected, as it is.

I'm less hard-core on the other chosen traits (football teams, smoking) though I think a wise employer would not fire for such things.

I rather like the Australian way of doing things, as it was described here.

I voted for “SHOULD be able to tell people not to wear anything religious and not to have posters in their space. “

This helps to avoid any conflicts in the work place while at the same time respecting the beliefs of all.
It's a business, not a place of worship.

I voted for, "SHOULD be able to tell people not to wear anything religious and not to have posters in their space." I personally think we could do with a lot less social tolerance of religion in general.

Personally I am with you all the way on this Alex, I believe the social influence of religion is FAR too great. But as a manager I am pretty happy to not have to make the determination of what is or isn't OK in the workplace.

Of course, if one of my team set their workspace up as a shrine to the point of disrupting coworkers or visitors, or was proselytising incessantly to co-workers, I would (first) have a quiet word to them. But this would be no different to me having a talk to a football obsessive or a military fanboy or whatever extreme kind of behaviour can be sometimes seen in the workplace.

The only really obvious cubicle-decorator in our company has about 20-30 photos of tigers stuck around her cubicle. But she doesn't have to worry about ME making her take them down...RRRAWWWRRRrrr!!!

Chickens deserve it.

Phedre allow me to change the quote of mine in your signature


everyone loves phedre except for chickens, its in the TOS

Hahahah!

Federal law in the USA says that employers must make reasonable accommodation for the religious practices of their employees. I have a Jewish coworker who wanted to be off work early enough on Fridays to attend synagogue and also asked for unpaid time off for certain Jewish holidays. The boss said that allowing him to do so wouldn't be reasonable. I laughed. I told him to imagine telling a judge that allowing the man to only work 8-9 hours on a Friday wasn't reasonable, or allowing him to take time off without pay when there is a person scheduled for lay off those times. He backed down and now the guy gets off in time for services and takes the High Holy Days off.

Thank you for that, Michael. I'm Jewish, too, and it's often been hard to get consideration like that. Oh, if they want me to work Christmas so someone else can have the day off, that they're for (hey, I do it each year, I wanted the favor returned for my day, y'know?) I finally now have a boss who is totally awesome -- he asks me what time off I might need before I even ask for it. A bit too generously, even. IE: "Do you need Hanukkah off?" Me: "No, eight days would be a bit much =) "