A serious question to Catholics

Well, unless you think egg and sperm are dead. It's sort of like asking... when is a walnut not a walnut? When it's a walnut tree... well... whatever.

Wah, it's a good thing they aren't considered "human" by some (even though, of couse, they are).

Imagine the last rites one would have to perform if... ah... oh... never mind.



What really tickles me is this. You know how embryo's look like bacteria, then fish, then little mammaly-things, then babies?

I wonder if 'humanity' will be little more than a developmental milestone for some complicated creature someday.


*whistles a tune* Every Zygote is Sacred...
- Desmond Shang

The haploid cells are in fact human, just like any other cell that originates in a human's body.

If you're asking if a diploid cell is a separate human being the answer is definitely not, it's just a single cell.

Instead of the erroneous question "when does life begin", the question, phrased medically should be "when is a conglomerate of diploid cells sufficiently developed that killing it should be avoided". I do not think the transition from two haploid cells to a diploid cell constitutes this boundary.

~Ulrika~

So. Back to my previous questions. Did god and mary commit adultery?

~Ulrika~

I knew I'd get in trouble when I stepped into this conversation.

Let's just say that the boundary where one human life gives way to another... that is not an easy topic.

They are human, in the sense that they are human cells. But are they *human beings*? From what follows, I think you would agree that they are not.



And there is where you would disagree with most of the Catholic Church, who believe that some diploid cells (e.g. a zygote) is a separate human being.


And many others do think that transition from two haploid cells to a diploid cell constitures that boundary. Some trivia: it used to be that Christians believed the human soul was placed into the baby during the "quickening" ... some 40 days into the pregnancy.

But they're different on a fundamental level than any other cells in your body. They're the only ones with only half of your genetic material.

The key difference between your cells and the cells of another organism, is the genetic material within.. and your haploid cells have different genetic material than all your other cells.

Of course NOT!!! Neither God nor Mary were married at the time.

You're talking about Parthenogenesis, which is a completely different thing to in-vitro fertilisation. I don't ask you to believe in it, but it's not only the catholic church which believes that Christ was born of a virgin.

Well, if so...God's gonna have to answer ta sombody.

BTW, Taco, sowwy fer soundin' so bitchy up-thread. I need to drink less caffiene.

And, God, being God, answers to?

Believe what you like, but the very definition of God says that (he/she/it/they) answer to nobody

Everybody's happy when the dead come home?

Hugs Liona - sorry to be snappy back, it's just that it really was meant as.....holy hell, what's all this nicities in off-topic today?? Can it really be that Lecktor was the problem the whole time?

Well, he *does* look like an Iraqi....

*sighs and gets dreamy-eyed over Naveen Andrews from Lost*

...I'm sorry. What were we talking about?

I understand the objection to the destruction of embryos, but I'm not sure I get the other part about maintaining the integrity of the conjugal moment.

One thing that strikes me as different between IVF and the immaculate conception: Mary is much more likely to have exclaimed, "Oh, God, yes!" when it happened.

Given that a zygote is invisible to the human eye after fertilization, I would say describing it as a "human being" quite a stretch. If you're going to create a pseudoscience around the transition of cellular material to an autonomous being that deserves the rights of a grown sentient human, you'll have to coin some new terminology, I think.

Your story about the "quickening" is telling. Christianity often redefines its pseudoscience to fit the change in observed fact as science marches forward.

~Ulrika~

Given that a diploid cell (zygote) is composed of two haploid cells and that Mary contributed a haploid cell in the form of an ovum, one wonders where the DNA for your god's haploid cell came.

Did god ejaculate in Mary? Was a single sperm materialized into the womb? Was a single set of unpaired chromosomes materialized directly into the egg? Was an ovum magically removed and then returned as a zygote (holy in-vitro fertilization)? Please, write your pseudoscience for us so we can watch the process.

~Ulrika~

This is interesting. Do you have any more info that you can point to about this belief? Most people when they get around to remembering it will find that the assumption of a new body takes place anywhere from a couple weeks before to right after birth. Of course occasionally you'll discover someone that took over a body after an accident or an operation. Amnesia in these cases is very important because that's a rather shameful thing to do.

You could say it is a stretch. However, it is the current stance of the Catholic Church: human life begins at conception. Thus for the Catholic Church, the zygote is a human being. You might think it is preposterous, it is still the belief of a great many people.



As our understanding of the physical laws of the universe progresses, shouldn't our understanding of the moral laws also progress? Of course, sometimes, the Church regresses; but like all human institutions, the Church is also fallible. Except, of course, when it's not.

It's a mystery. Really, no pseudoscience here, it was a miracle, something that happens outside of the realm of science.

Seems I got the terminology wrong. The "quickening" is the time when the mother can feel the baby kicking. The proper term for when the soul enters the body is "ensoulment." Here's a history of Christian belief about abortion. As you will see the Catholic Church has reversed itself a couple of times on this.

ROFL!!!!!!!!! It still doesn't count according to Bill Clinton.

In all seriousness I think that Siggy got the correct answer.

Not just outside of the realm of science but outside of the realm of reality. Question your beliefs. Especially ones which are nonsensical, unprovable, and mystical.

~Ulrika~

Why, Taco Rubio, you big black nemesis, you!

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001FW0.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

I am in shock and awe that somebody got that - you just made my day, Memory*

We feel like Greeks, we feel like Romans
Centaurs and monkeys just cluster round us
We drink elixirs that we refine
From the juices of the dying
We are no monsters, we're moral people
And yet we have the strength to do this
This is the splendour of our achievement
Call in the airstrike with a poison kiss


* also you're very, very, very old.

Nah, I just see the fish below the ice sometimes ...