Second Life Forums Archive - Post questions for Technical Town Hall with Cory Linden Dec. 2 at 4 PM PT

blaze Spinnaker

1/2 Serious

Join date: 12 Aug 2004

Posts: 5,898

12-01-2004 15:51

Question:

Do you have a developer task list for your developers?

If so, why can't you post it to a public website with the caveat that nothing is written in stone (and names left off, I guess)?

At least then, we'd have an idea of what you folks are thinking about..

_____________________

Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."

Adam Zaius

Deus

Join date: 9 Jan 2004

Posts: 1,483

12-01-2004 15:54

From: Jarod Godel

Or, the abridged question, what computer language do you recommend for someone trying to compete with Second Life? I'm leaning toward C# and .Net libraries because of the RAD capabilities. What do you think?

TCL, Python, or Ruby.

Open source, powerfull, extensible and run fast on every platform.

_____________________

Co-Founder / Lead Developer
GigasSecondServer

Prokofy Neva

Virtualtor

Join date: 28 Sep 2004

Posts: 3,698

12-01-2004 20:29

I would like a definitive from-the-horse's-mouth pronouncement on what REALLY causes lag and why the pressure shouldn't be on YOU to have faster more powerful servers rather than in-game on players to curb their activities and appearance.

Is it actually club lights?
Is it just 30 avatars?
Is it money balls and raffles?
Is it REALLY hoochie hair?
Do land scanners really generate lag?
Are you REALLY telling me my monacle with 30 prims in a chain is a lag monster?!

Should there really be social pressure applied to people to remove their lag-generating outfits/attachments/scripty things?

What is the REAL cause of lag? Players' avatars only?

P.S. Pls don't tell me to turn off local lighting and shiny.

Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

12-01-2004 21:34

considering that there is no limit imposed on the amount of storage an av can command on the asset server, and the plethora of asset related problems we've seen, and continue to see, through the last several releases, have you all yet considered the wisdom of implementing object import and export features?

_____________________

Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net

Azelda Garcia

Join date: 3 Nov 2003

Posts: 819

12-01-2004 23:34

> considering that there is no limit imposed on the amount of storage an av can command on the asset server, and the plethora of asset related problems we've seen, and continue to see, through the last several releases, have you all yet considered the wisdom of implementing object import and export features?

I'd like to second this question. I have 2 avs, one takes a minute or so to connect, the other takes a full five minutes. Most of that is time to download the names of zillions of versions of scripts that I own for different projects, and I'd love to just tar them all up and store them off-world, so I dont have to download them every time I connect :-/

As a variation on the question, could we possibly have ssh + ftp access to a Linden ShellServer from whose commandline we can directly access our inventory, and the inventory of our objects? In addition, we'd be able to run scripts - in any language we choose - that directly affect the world of SecondLife. This would solve the whole language wars problem, and give us a huge amount of flexibility to create.

Azelda

_____________________

blaze Spinnaker

1/2 Serious

Join date: 12 Aug 2004

Posts: 5,898

12-01-2004 23:38

From: someone

considering that there is no limit imposed on the amount of storage an av can command on the asset server, and the plethora of asset related problems we've seen, and continue to see, through the last several releases, have you all yet considered the wisdom of implementing object import and export features?

Hmm! Brilliant!

Why go to an asset server? Why not just have everything stored locally on your own machine?

I wonder how bandwidth intensive an Avatar and all their attachments really is.

Objects themselves don't seem particularly complicated. llSetPrimParams has a pretty small list. Why can't we just rez out of our local hard drive?

_____________________

Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."

Azelda Garcia

Join date: 3 Nov 2003

Posts: 819

12-01-2004 23:53

> Objects themselves don't seem particularly complicated. llSetPrimParams has a pretty small list. Why can't we just rez out of our local hard drive?

(FWIW, this is a little how OSMP works: objects are stored on your hard-drive, and merely cached on the server when you rez them.

The advantage being that you can use every inventory management system under the sun to manage and control your inventory, including things like CVS, Windows Explorer, tar, and so on.

)

Azelda

_____________________

Huns Valen

Don't PM me here.

Join date: 3 May 2003

Posts: 2,749

12-02-2004 00:53

When is the text editor going to be as functional as notepad?
Any chance a script window can hold more text? (I keep having to delete comments and that is a no-no. I think notecards hold 2x as much text.)
Notecards used to be monospaced, now they are proportional. Can I have a switch to select which font to use?
Havok 2
Phantom prims in link sets? There are a few people who know how to make vehicles with >30 prims (such as myself, although I don't do it) and everyone else has to make do with 30. That does not seem equitable to me.
gdlib or similar render-to-surface support?
Border crossing is a lot better than it used to be but it is still harsh, particularly in vehicles. Is there a plan to permanently cause border crossing to be transparent?
Better peer (or, hell, SL developer) review on LSL changes? There were at least two changes this year that broke existing scripts (BTW... thanks for rolling those back, we do appreciate it.)
Ability to build a real HUD?
Analogue input device (viz. joystick, mouse) layer for LSL?
Remote method invocation - one script calls a function in another and gets a return value, instead of having to broadcast link messages to every script in a link set?
Imports (like Java), preferably with their own memory space, unless we get more memory.

_____________________

[ huns? || words || 1TBS KREW || VHI Aircraft || Whitepaper on Aircraft Physics ]

Make yourself and your objects immune to llPushObject().

Lecktor Hannibal

YOUR MOM

Join date: 1 Jul 2004

Posts: 6,734

12-02-2004 07:43

Inventory fix/upgrade/replacement/client side. When?

_____________________

YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net '

From: Khamon Fate

Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible.

Bikers have more fun than people !

Ace Cassidy

Resident Bohemian

Join date: 5 Apr 2004

Posts: 1,228

12-02-2004 07:45

Are there any plans to add an "instant_message()" event to LSL so that object's can be IM'd? This would enhance secure communications, as well as reduce listen processing.

- Ace

_____________________

"Free your mind, and your ass will follow" - George Clinton

Loki Pico

Registered User

Join date: 20 Jun 2003

Posts: 1,938

12-02-2004 08:17

Prim resources are limited to plot size owned. Are there any plans to attempt this with other resources like scripts, light objects, or physical objects in the same manner, in an attempt to share all the sim resources more fairly?

Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

12-02-2004 09:34

From: Loki Pico

Prim resources are limited to plot size owned. Are there any plans to attempt this with other resources like scripts, light objects, or physical objects in the same manner, in an attempt to share all the sim resources more fairly?

please add number of textures to that list.

_____________________

Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net

Tiger Crossing

The Prim Maker

Join date: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,560

12-02-2004 10:27

1) What changes and features are coming soon for certain? (Next verion or so.)

2) What changes and features are solidly planed for future versions? (The next year?)

3) What smaller changes and features may be coming in the near future if there is time?

4) What major changes and features are on hold until other technology improves?

5) And would you find this idea useful? ...
a) You start a thread asking for all outstanding technical feature requests, one-line description/title only.
b) You post a summary list to the thread every few days with all the ideas numbered.
c) After a week or two, put this list on a web page where people can re-order them as to how important they think each idea is to further SL's growth.
d) YOU get the final numbers showing what most of the playerbase wants.

_____________________

~ Tiger Crossing
~ (Nonsanity)

Haney Linden

Senior Member

Join date: 3 Oct 2002

Posts: 990

12-02-2004 11:15

Thank you for your posts. I'm going to go ahead and compile this data for the Town Hall. If you have addtional questions, please IM them to Haney Linden during the Town Hall rather than posting them here.

Haney Linden

Senior Member

Join date: 3 Oct 2002

Posts: 990

12-02-2004 12:12

Please note the Town Hall has been postponed to Friday 4 PM PT. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Jade Lily

Cat Herder

Join date: 9 Oct 2003

Posts: 219

12-02-2004 12:51

I'm looking forward to XML-RPC and better text display within SL. Any discussion of those will be of great interest to me. Could you also tell us when we might begin to see a browser type display within SL?

Bran Brodie

Registered User

Join date: 5 Jun 2004

Posts: 134

12-02-2004 19:26

Well it seems that bug fixes and stability are _not_ a priority, WOW! With this attitude SL will surley sink into oblivian and you guys deserve it, you are asking for it. Duh!

_____________________

Someday there will be a Metaverse that puts users first. Sadly LL does not want to be that Metaverse.

Chromal Brodsky

ExperimentalMetaphysicist

Join date: 24 Feb 2004

Posts: 243

12-02-2004 20:40

From: Bran Brodie

Well it seems that bug fixes and stability are _not_ a priority, WOW! With this attitude SL will surley sink into oblivian and you guys deserve it, you are asking for it. Duh!

Please state your question in the form of a question. And, uh, make sense.

Princess Medici

sad panda

Join date: 1 Mar 2004

Posts: 416

12-02-2004 21:05

Can someone please grab a chatlog of the townhall and post it to the forums? Higbee and I won't be able to be in SL, and we'd really like to know what is discussed. Thanks.

_____________________

Please cease and desist from your derogatory use of Elmo.

Torley Linden

Enlightenment!

Join date: 15 Sep 2004

Posts: 16,530

12-02-2004 21:12

From: Princess Medici

Can someone please grab a chatlog of the townhall and post it to the forums? Higbee and I won't be able to be in SL, and we'd really like to know what is discussed. Thanks.

Ah, Princess, I think an official transcript will be posted in due time anyway by Haney or another Linden, but in any case, I'll be lookin' out for yas.

_____________________

Princess Medici

sad panda

Join date: 1 Mar 2004

Posts: 416

12-02-2004 21:22

Thankies Torley! I hadn't seen any mention of an officail transcript being posted, so I wanted to cover it just in case.

_____________________

Please cease and desist from your derogatory use of Elmo.

Haney Linden

Senior Member

Join date: 3 Oct 2002

Posts: 990

12-02-2004 21:44

I'll do my best to get one up by 6 PM PT on Friday.

Azelda Garcia

Join date: 3 Nov 2003

Posts: 819

12-03-2004 03:24

> Please note the Town Hall has been postponed to Friday 4 PM PT. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Oh well that's good cos I didnt crawl out of bed till 9am this morning, which is 5pm PST. OTOH, I'd prefer to have not crawled out of bed at all before midday

Azelda

_____________________

blaze Spinnaker

1/2 Serious

Join date: 12 Aug 2004

Posts: 5,898

12-03-2004 10:21

Haney, time for one last question?

It seems that people want a lot of features (just read this thread and the feature suggestions) but LL is only so big with only so many resources.

Wouldn't it make sense to create a plug-in API for the client as soon as possible so that these features can be added by outside development resources?

_____________________

Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

Outstanding Post, Jarod, Excellent!!

12-03-2004 10:35

I really like the sentiment behind these questions as well as as the questions themselves.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Post questions for Technical Town Hall with Cory Linden Dec. 2 at 4 PM PT
blaze Spinnaker 1/2 Serious Join date: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 5,898	12-01-2004 15:51 Question: Do you have a developer task list for your developers? If so, why can't you post it to a public website with the caveat that nothing is written in stone (and names left off, I guess)? At least then, we'd have an idea of what you folks are thinking about.. _____________________ Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : "User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Adam Zaius Deus Join date: 9 Jan 2004 Posts: 1,483	12-01-2004 15:54 From: Jarod Godel Or, the abridged question, what computer language do you recommend for someone trying to compete with Second Life? I'm leaning toward C# and .Net libraries because of the RAD capabilities. What do you think? TCL, Python, or Ruby. Open source, powerfull, extensible and run fast on every platform. _____________________ Co-Founder / Lead Developer GigasSecondServer
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	12-01-2004 20:29 I would like a definitive from-the-horse's-mouth pronouncement on what REALLY causes lag and why the pressure shouldn't be on YOU to have faster more powerful servers rather than in-game on players to curb their activities and appearance. Is it actually club lights? Is it just 30 avatars? Is it money balls and raffles? Is it REALLY hoochie hair? Do land scanners really generate lag? Are you REALLY telling me my monacle with 30 prims in a chain is a lag monster?! Should there really be social pressure applied to people to remove their lag-generating outfits/attachments/scripty things? What is the REAL cause of lag? Players' avatars only? P.S. Pls don't tell me to turn off local lighting and shiny.
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	12-01-2004 21:34 considering that there is no limit imposed on the amount of storage an av can command on the asset server, and the plethora of asset related problems we've seen, and continue to see, through the last several releases, have you all yet considered the wisdom of implementing object import and export features? _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Azelda Garcia Azelda Garcia Join date: 3 Nov 2003 Posts: 819	12-01-2004 23:34 > considering that there is no limit imposed on the amount of storage an av can command on the asset server, and the plethora of asset related problems we've seen, and continue to see, through the last several releases, have you all yet considered the wisdom of implementing object import and export features? I'd like to second this question. I have 2 avs, one takes a minute or so to connect, the other takes a full five minutes. Most of that is time to download the names of zillions of versions of scripts that I own for different projects, and I'd love to just tar them all up and store them off-world, so I dont have to download them every time I connect :-/ As a variation on the question, could we possibly have ssh + ftp access to a Linden ShellServer from whose commandline we can directly access our inventory, and the inventory of our objects? In addition, we'd be able to run scripts - in any language we choose - that directly affect the world of SecondLife. This would solve the whole language wars problem, and give us a huge amount of flexibility to create. Azelda _____________________
blaze Spinnaker 1/2 Serious Join date: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 5,898	12-01-2004 23:38 From: someone considering that there is no limit imposed on the amount of storage an av can command on the asset server, and the plethora of asset related problems we've seen, and continue to see, through the last several releases, have you all yet considered the wisdom of implementing object import and export features? Hmm! Brilliant! Why go to an asset server? Why not just have everything stored locally on your own machine? I wonder how bandwidth intensive an Avatar and all their attachments really is. Objects themselves don't seem particularly complicated. llSetPrimParams has a pretty small list. Why can't we just rez out of our local hard drive? _____________________ Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : "User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Azelda Garcia Azelda Garcia Join date: 3 Nov 2003 Posts: 819	12-01-2004 23:53 > Objects themselves don't seem particularly complicated. llSetPrimParams has a pretty small list. Why can't we just rez out of our local hard drive? (FWIW, this is a little how OSMP works: objects are stored on your hard-drive, and merely cached on the server when you rez them. The advantage being that you can use every inventory management system under the sun to manage and control your inventory, including things like CVS, Windows Explorer, tar, and so on. ) Azelda _____________________
Huns Valen Don't PM me here. Join date: 3 May 2003 Posts: 2,749	12-02-2004 00:53 When is the text editor going to be as functional as notepad? Any chance a script window can hold more text? (I keep having to delete comments and that is a no-no. I think notecards hold 2x as much text.) Notecards used to be monospaced, now they are proportional. Can I have a switch to select which font to use? Havok 2 Phantom prims in link sets? There are a few people who know how to make vehicles with >30 prims (such as myself, although I don't do it) and everyone else has to make do with 30. That does not seem equitable to me. gdlib or similar render-to-surface support? Border crossing is a lot better than it used to be but it is still harsh, particularly in vehicles. Is there a plan to permanently cause border crossing to be transparent? Better peer (or, hell, SL developer) review on LSL changes? There were at least two changes this year that broke existing scripts (BTW... thanks for rolling those back, we do appreciate it.) Ability to build a real HUD? Analogue input device (viz. joystick, mouse) layer for LSL? Remote method invocation - one script calls a function in another and gets a return value, instead of having to broadcast link messages to every script in a link set? Imports (like Java), preferably with their own memory space, unless we get more memory. _____________________ [ huns? \|\| words \|\| 1TBS KREW \|\| VHI Aircraft \|\| Whitepaper on Aircraft Physics ] Make yourself and your objects immune to llPushObject().
Lecktor Hannibal YOUR MOM Join date: 1 Jul 2004 Posts: 6,734	12-02-2004 07:43 Inventory fix/upgrade/replacement/client side. When? _____________________ YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
Ace Cassidy Resident Bohemian Join date: 5 Apr 2004 Posts: 1,228	12-02-2004 07:45 Are there any plans to add an "instant_message()" event to LSL so that object's can be IM'd? This would enhance secure communications, as well as reduce listen processing. - Ace _____________________ "Free your mind, and your ass will follow" - George Clinton
Loki Pico Registered User Join date: 20 Jun 2003 Posts: 1,938	12-02-2004 08:17 Prim resources are limited to plot size owned. Are there any plans to attempt this with other resources like scripts, light objects, or physical objects in the same manner, in an attempt to share all the sim resources more fairly?
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	12-02-2004 09:34 From: Loki Pico Prim resources are limited to plot size owned. Are there any plans to attempt this with other resources like scripts, light objects, or physical objects in the same manner, in an attempt to share all the sim resources more fairly? please add number of textures to that list. _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Tiger Crossing The Prim Maker Join date: 18 Aug 2003 Posts: 1,560	12-02-2004 10:27 1) What changes and features are coming soon for certain? (Next verion or so.) 2) What changes and features are solidly planed for future versions? (The next year?) 3) What smaller changes and features may be coming in the near future if there is time? 4) What major changes and features are on hold until other technology improves? 5) And would you find this idea useful? ... a) You start a thread asking for all outstanding technical feature requests, one-line description/title only. b) You post a summary list to the thread every few days with all the ideas numbered. c) After a week or two, put this list on a web page where people can re-order them as to how important they think each idea is to further SL's growth. d) YOU get the final numbers showing what most of the playerbase wants. _____________________ ~ Tiger Crossing ~ (Nonsanity)
Haney Linden Senior Member Join date: 3 Oct 2002 Posts: 990	12-02-2004 11:15 Thank you for your posts. I'm going to go ahead and compile this data for the Town Hall. If you have addtional questions, please IM them to Haney Linden during the Town Hall rather than posting them here.
Haney Linden Senior Member Join date: 3 Oct 2002 Posts: 990	12-02-2004 12:12 Please note the Town Hall has been postponed to Friday 4 PM PT. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Jade Lily Cat Herder Join date: 9 Oct 2003 Posts: 219	12-02-2004 12:51 I'm looking forward to XML-RPC and better text display within SL. Any discussion of those will be of great interest to me. Could you also tell us when we might begin to see a browser type display within SL?
Bran Brodie Registered User Join date: 5 Jun 2004 Posts: 134	12-02-2004 19:26 Well it seems that bug fixes and stability are _not_ a priority, WOW! With this attitude SL will surley sink into oblivian and you guys deserve it, you are asking for it. Duh! _____________________ Someday there will be a Metaverse that puts users first. Sadly LL does not want to be that Metaverse.
Chromal Brodsky ExperimentalMetaphysicist Join date: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 243	12-02-2004 20:40 From: Bran Brodie Well it seems that bug fixes and stability are _not_ a priority, WOW! With this attitude SL will surley sink into oblivian and you guys deserve it, you are asking for it. Duh! Please state your question in the form of a question. And, uh, make sense.
Princess Medici sad panda Join date: 1 Mar 2004 Posts: 416	12-02-2004 21:05 Can someone please grab a chatlog of the townhall and post it to the forums? Higbee and I won't be able to be in SL, and we'd really like to know what is discussed. Thanks. _____________________ Please cease and desist from your derogatory use of Elmo.
Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530	12-02-2004 21:12 From: Princess Medici Can someone please grab a chatlog of the townhall and post it to the forums? Higbee and I won't be able to be in SL, and we'd really like to know what is discussed. Thanks. Ah, Princess, I think an official transcript will be posted in due time anyway by Haney or another Linden, but in any case, I'll be lookin' out for yas. _____________________
Princess Medici sad panda Join date: 1 Mar 2004 Posts: 416	12-02-2004 21:22 Thankies Torley! I hadn't seen any mention of an officail transcript being posted, so I wanted to cover it just in case. _____________________ Please cease and desist from your derogatory use of Elmo.
Haney Linden Senior Member Join date: 3 Oct 2002 Posts: 990	12-02-2004 21:44 I'll do my best to get one up by 6 PM PT on Friday.
Azelda Garcia Azelda Garcia Join date: 3 Nov 2003 Posts: 819	12-03-2004 03:24 > Please note the Town Hall has been postponed to Friday 4 PM PT. Sorry for the inconvenience. Oh well that's good cos I didnt crawl out of bed till 9am this morning, which is 5pm PST. OTOH, I'd prefer to have not crawled out of bed at all before midday Azelda _____________________
blaze Spinnaker 1/2 Serious Join date: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 5,898	12-03-2004 10:21 Haney, time for one last question? It seems that people want a lot of features (just read this thread and the feature suggestions) but LL is only so big with only so many resources. Wouldn't it make sense to create a plug-in API for the client as soon as possible so that these features can be added by outside development resources? _____________________ Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : "User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	Outstanding Post, Jarod, Excellent!! 12-03-2004 10:35 I really like the sentiment behind these questions as well as as the questions themselves. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -

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Post questions for Technical Town Hall with Cory Linden Dec. 2 at 4 PM PT