Second Life Forums Archive - Update on texture issues -- a bug found and fixed; one major issue remains

Karen Linden

Dev. Program Manager

Join date: 25 Jul 2005

Posts: 396

12-12-2005 12:02

We have been working for weeks to determine the causes of ongoing texture issues. Issues we have isolated have been fixed as we have found them, but problems continue to exist. The good news is that we had a breakthrough late last week, and I would like to share the details with everyone here:

During some development work Friday night, we discovered a bug where we weren't spending as much time decompressing textures as we could every frame, resulting in slower texture loads. The fix for this issue will be in 1.8.0. (It can be seen currently in Preview, version 1.8.0(5) and higher.)

While this fix should greatly improve the experience, there is another issue which is still causing problems. Residents have suggested their cache is broken because objects that have already been loaded once are redrawn each time they are seen. We don't believe this to be a caching issue; rather, a change in Interest List behavior in 1.7 is the suspected cause.

The Interest List is a collection of objects (prims, etc.) including agents and agents in other regions (who can see your avatar). We use this list to know what to display to you and those around you.

In 1.7, we changed the way objects already drawn are stored for re-use. We are currently investigating a modification of the new scheme that should resolve the remaining issue widely described as "a broken cache." Work on this issue will continue until a resolution is found, at which time I will post an update here.

Chosen Few

Alpha Channel Slave

Join date: 16 Jan 2004

Posts: 7,496

12-12-2005 12:30

Thanks for the info, Karen. This is good to know.

_____________________

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Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.

Sophie Boffin

Registered User

Join date: 13 Oct 2004

Posts: 42

Gray Textures

12-12-2005 12:58

Karen thank you for at least keeping us informed. Frustrating problem for all us in world people...and frustrating I am sure for those trying to correct the problem...ty again.

Starax Statosky

Unregistered User

Join date: 23 Dec 2003

Posts: 1,099

12-12-2005 13:04

Wuvme Karuna

..:: Spicy Latina ::..

Join date: 6 Jun 2004

Posts: 1,669

12-12-2005 13:05

Thanks for letting us know that you are working on it, some people think you guys are just eating donuts and collecting bugs with a peanut butter jar. LOL

at least we know you guys are working on it!

_____________________

www.calientexpress.com

Travis Lambert

White dog, red collar

Join date: 3 Jun 2004

Posts: 2,819

12-12-2005 13:10

Thanks, Karen!

As always, your communication to us is greatly appreciated!

_____________________

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The Shelter

The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world.

Frans Charming

You only need one Frans

Join date: 28 Jan 2005

Posts: 1,847

12-12-2005 17:30

Thanks Karen, it is allways much appriciated to get updates about fixes or existing problems. =)
Seems like you guys are getting on top of most the serious complains i hear. Goodjob. =)

_____________________

Malachi Petunia

Gentle Miscreant

Join date: 21 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,414

12-12-2005 17:43

Very heartening and deeply appreciated. Thank you for the information.

_____________________

Strife Onizuka

Moonchild

Join date: 3 Mar 2004

Posts: 5,887

12-12-2005 20:18

I keep meaning to post this, the interest list has been borked since it was modified in 1.7, I've recorded video of it doing crazy stuff (via the texture debug window). I've seen stuff jump up to the top of the list then disappear form the list to appear again at a regular interval, without my camera moving.

What do the colors in the texture debug window signify?

Also when a change in a textures anim status comes in, the animated face(s) doesn't get rendered for one frame, looks unprofessional.

To lend creadence to the beleif that the cache is broken, i've been monitoring cache efficiency and usage for the past 8 months, i've noticed that the amount of data stored in the cache sharply decreased at the same time reports were coming in that textures weren't rendering. But with the interest list basicly broken that would effect it significantly.

_____________________

Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river.
- Cyril Connolly

Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence.
- James Nachtwey

Maxwolf Goodliffe

Registered User

Join date: 30 Dec 2005

Posts: 137

01-06-2006 12:36

Sounds like you are well on the road to recovery if you guys over at LL have been able to isolate what is exactly causing the problem, now you just gotta write that code

Torley Linden

Enlightenment!

Join date: 15 Sep 2004

Posts: 16,530

01-06-2006 12:56

I'm looking forward to testing this to the hilt. I'm very picky about texture loading.

_____________________

Keane Edge

Registered User

Join date: 25 Apr 2005

Posts: 53

01-06-2006 13:03

Ummm guys you just necro'ed a thread (though not by much), but the important part is that they said the fix was in 1.8. Which has obviously already been released.

Funny thing is, I hadn't really noticed a big problem UNTIL 1.8. Whatever they fixed, it's probably a good idea to take another hard look.

ZsuZsanna Raven

~:+: Supah Kitteh :+:~

Join date: 19 Dec 2004

Posts: 2,361

01-06-2006 13:14

Damn, and here I thought something good was happening with a fix...I hate necroposting

_____________________

~Mewz!~

Torley Linden

Enlightenment!

Join date: 15 Sep 2004

Posts: 16,530

01-06-2006 13:17

From: Keane Edge

Ummm guys you just necro'ed a thread (though not by much), but the important part is that they said the fix was in 1.8. Which has obviously already been released.

Funny thing is, I hadn't really noticed a big problem UNTIL 1.8. Whatever they fixed, it's probably a good idea to take another hard look.

O, then we can continue to ask about this, that's wonderful!

_____________________

Intent Unknown

Registered User

Join date: 16 Nov 2005

Posts: 82

01-06-2006 13:20

From: Keane Edge

... the important part is that they said the fix was in 1.8. Which has obviously already been released.

Look closely and you'll see that Karen says that only one of the issue was fixed in 1.8, the issue involving the time spent on decompressing textures.

There is another bug she mentions involving the interest list that is still at large and is still being waited on patiently.

Keane Edge

Registered User

Join date: 25 Apr 2005

Posts: 53

01-06-2006 13:26

From: Intent Unknown

Look closely and you'll see that Karen says that only one of the issue was fixed in 1.8, the issue involving the time spent on decompressing textures.

There is another bug she mentions involving the interest list that is still at large and is still being waited on patiently.

Based on the results of the first fix, I'm not looking forward to the next one. Will it merely get us back up to the old performance? Or will it plunge us deeper into GrayTex Hell?

Maxwolf Goodliffe

Registered User

Join date: 30 Dec 2005

Posts: 137

01-09-2006 12:03

I am going to say this and not going to knock on wood. Things cannot get any worse in the texture area!

Argent Stonecutter

Emergency Mustelid

Join date: 20 Sep 2005

Posts: 20,263

01-10-2006 14:24

I don't know if they've officially fixed things or not, but I've noticed better texture loading performance the past few days. I still have problems with textures getting indefinitely deferred, or half loading, but it's not feeling as horrible as it was before Christmas.

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

03-05-2006 08:29

Has the second problem Karen Linden mentioned been fixed yet?

_____________________

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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

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Introvert Petunia

over 2 billion posts

Join date: 11 Sep 2004

Posts: 2,065

03-05-2006 09:24

Probably not as they must have lost the bug number or it would be fixed!

From: Karen Linden

Sorry to hear that you've had these sort of problems. Can you please refer me to your bug reports describing them? I will pass the information along to QA and from there take the issue(s) to the development team.

Please email as much information as possible to [email]karen@lindenlab.com[/email]. If we can understand the problem, we can do something to solve it!

It is broken, they don't know why, they aren't likely to figure out why, and they don't really seem to much care. When an software firm is capable of deferring a release by a week because "QA encountered a major problem with some of the new functionality in the 1.8.4 code" and then has to release an emergency patch later that same day and then four and a half hours later decides the "optional" patch is now "mandatory", it becomes rather difficult to believe that they have any idea what they are doing.

And, yes, in case you are wondering, I think they are being so disengenuous as to deserve all the derision anyone cares to cast their way.

Argent Stonecutter

Emergency Mustelid

Join date: 20 Sep 2005

Posts: 20,263

03-05-2006 10:37

From: Introvert Petunia

When an software firm is capable of deferring a release by a week because "QA encountered a major problem with some of the new functionality in the 1.8.4 code" and then has to release an emergency patch later that same day and then four and a half hours later decides the "optional" patch is now "mandatory", it becomes rather difficult to believe that they have any idea what they are doing.

Sounds like standard operating procedure in the software industry to me.

Introvert Petunia

over 2 billion posts

Join date: 11 Sep 2004

Posts: 2,065

03-05-2006 11:19

From: Argent Stonecutter

Sounds like standard operating procedure in the software industry to me.

I agree in part: it is SOP in software firms that fail. Even Microsoft has stopped releasing patches that break more than they fix and you no longer have to say "whatever you do, don't install that Microsoft patch!".

In the games industry, Rockstar is notable for rarely having to release any patches for their products. Maxis can do it, EA slightly less so. What they don't do is make the same mistakes every few weeks for years on end. Even earthworms learn from experience.

Argent Stonecutter

Emergency Mustelid

Join date: 20 Sep 2005

Posts: 20,263

03-05-2006 13:43

From: Introvert Petunia

I agree in part: it is SOP in software firms that fail. Even Microsoft has stopped releasing patches that break more than they fix and you no longer have to say "whatever you do, don't install that Microsoft patch!".

Um, actually, it was Microsoft that I was thinking of. If EVERYONE in the world had to pick up a patch for it to happen, Microsoft would be in big trouble because, well, they issue hotfixes all the time that you aren't supposed to install unless you have a problem they fix. Most people don't need to care, because they're not all running the same version and patch level. Lindel Labs would have to be a whole lot bigger than they are to be able to afford supporting multiple versions of clients.

Update on texture issues -- a bug found and fixed; one major issue remains
Karen Linden Dev. Program Manager Join date: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 396	12-12-2005 12:02 We have been working for weeks to determine the causes of ongoing texture issues. Issues we have isolated have been fixed as we have found them, but problems continue to exist. The good news is that we had a breakthrough late last week, and I would like to share the details with everyone here: During some development work Friday night, we discovered a bug where we weren't spending as much time decompressing textures as we could every frame, resulting in slower texture loads. The fix for this issue will be in 1.8.0. (It can be seen currently in Preview, version 1.8.0(5) and higher.) While this fix should greatly improve the experience, there is another issue which is still causing problems. Residents have suggested their cache is broken because objects that have already been loaded once are redrawn each time they are seen. We don't believe this to be a caching issue; rather, a change in Interest List behavior in 1.7 is the suspected cause. The Interest List is a collection of objects (prims, etc.) including agents and agents in other regions (who can see your avatar). We use this list to know what to display to you and those around you. In 1.7, we changed the way objects already drawn are stored for re-use. We are currently investigating a modification of the new scheme that should resolve the remaining issue widely described as "a broken cache." Work on this issue will continue until a resolution is found, at which time I will post an update here.
Chosen Few Alpha Channel Slave Join date: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 7,496	12-12-2005 12:30 Thanks for the info, Karen. This is good to know. _____________________ . Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.
Sophie Boffin Registered User Join date: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 42	Gray Textures 12-12-2005 12:58 Karen thank you for at least keeping us informed. Frustrating problem for all us in world people...and frustrating I am sure for those trying to correct the problem...ty again.
Starax Statosky Unregistered User Join date: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,099	12-12-2005 13:04
Wuvme Karuna ..:: Spicy Latina ::.. Join date: 6 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,669	12-12-2005 13:05 Thanks for letting us know that you are working on it, some people think you guys are just eating donuts and collecting bugs with a peanut butter jar. LOL at least we know you guys are working on it! _____________________ www.calientexpress.com
Travis Lambert White dog, red collar Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 2,819	12-12-2005 13:10 Thanks, Karen! As always, your communication to us is greatly appreciated! _____________________ ------------------ The Shelter The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world.
Frans Charming You only need one Frans Join date: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 1,847	12-12-2005 17:30 Thanks Karen, it is allways much appriciated to get updates about fixes or existing problems. =) Seems like you guys are getting on top of most the serious complains i hear. Goodjob. =) _____________________
Malachi Petunia Gentle Miscreant Join date: 21 Sep 2003 Posts: 3,414	12-12-2005 17:43 Very heartening and deeply appreciated. Thank you for the information. _____________________
Strife Onizuka Moonchild Join date: 3 Mar 2004 Posts: 5,887	12-12-2005 20:18 I keep meaning to post this, the interest list has been borked since it was modified in 1.7, I've recorded video of it doing crazy stuff (via the texture debug window). I've seen stuff jump up to the top of the list then disappear form the list to appear again at a regular interval, without my camera moving. What do the colors in the texture debug window signify? Also when a change in a textures anim status comes in, the animated face(s) doesn't get rendered for one frame, looks unprofessional. To lend creadence to the beleif that the cache is broken, i've been monitoring cache efficiency and usage for the past 8 months, i've noticed that the amount of data stored in the cache sharply decreased at the same time reports were coming in that textures weren't rendering. But with the interest list basicly broken that would effect it significantly. _____________________ Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey
Maxwolf Goodliffe Registered User Join date: 30 Dec 2005 Posts: 137	01-06-2006 12:36 Sounds like you are well on the road to recovery if you guys over at LL have been able to isolate what is exactly causing the problem, now you just gotta write that code
Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530	01-06-2006 12:56 I'm looking forward to testing this to the hilt. I'm very picky about texture loading. _____________________
Keane Edge Registered User Join date: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 53	01-06-2006 13:03 Ummm guys you just necro'ed a thread (though not by much), but the important part is that they said the fix was in 1.8. Which has obviously already been released. Funny thing is, I hadn't really noticed a big problem UNTIL 1.8. Whatever they fixed, it's probably a good idea to take another hard look.
ZsuZsanna Raven ~:+: Supah Kitteh :+:~ Join date: 19 Dec 2004 Posts: 2,361	01-06-2006 13:14 Damn, and here I thought something good was happening with a fix...I hate necroposting _____________________ ~Mewz!~
Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530	01-06-2006 13:17 From: Keane Edge Ummm guys you just necro'ed a thread (though not by much), but the important part is that they said the fix was in 1.8. Which has obviously already been released. Funny thing is, I hadn't really noticed a big problem UNTIL 1.8. Whatever they fixed, it's probably a good idea to take another hard look. O, then we can continue to ask about this, that's wonderful! _____________________
Intent Unknown Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 82	01-06-2006 13:20 From: Keane Edge ... the important part is that they said the fix was in 1.8. Which has obviously already been released. Look closely and you'll see that Karen says that only one of the issue was fixed in 1.8, the issue involving the time spent on decompressing textures. There is another bug she mentions involving the interest list that is still at large and is still being waited on patiently.
Keane Edge Registered User Join date: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 53	01-06-2006 13:26 From: Intent Unknown Look closely and you'll see that Karen says that only one of the issue was fixed in 1.8, the issue involving the time spent on decompressing textures. There is another bug she mentions involving the interest list that is still at large and is still being waited on patiently. Based on the results of the first fix, I'm not looking forward to the next one. Will it merely get us back up to the old performance? Or will it plunge us deeper into GrayTex Hell?
Maxwolf Goodliffe Registered User Join date: 30 Dec 2005 Posts: 137	01-09-2006 12:03 I am going to say this and not going to knock on wood. Things cannot get any worse in the texture area!
Argent Stonecutter Emergency Mustelid Join date: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 20,263	01-10-2006 14:24 I don't know if they've officially fixed things or not, but I've noticed better texture loading performance the past few days. I still have problems with textures getting indefinitely deferred, or half loading, but it's not feeling as horrible as it was before Christmas.
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	03-05-2006 08:29 Has the second problem Karen Linden mentioned been fixed yet? _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Introvert Petunia over 2 billion posts Join date: 11 Sep 2004 Posts: 2,065	03-05-2006 09:24 Probably not as they must have lost the bug number or it would be fixed! From: Karen Linden Sorry to hear that you've had these sort of problems. Can you please refer me to your bug reports describing them? I will pass the information along to QA and from there take the issue(s) to the development team. Please email as much information as possible to [email]karen@lindenlab.com[/email]. If we can understand the problem, we can do something to solve it! It is broken, they don't know why, they aren't likely to figure out why, and they don't really seem to much care. When an software firm is capable of deferring a release by a week because "QA encountered a major problem with some of the new functionality in the 1.8.4 code" and then has to release an emergency patch later that same day and then four and a half hours later decides the "optional" patch is now "mandatory", it becomes rather difficult to believe that they have any idea what they are doing. And, yes, in case you are wondering, I think they are being so disengenuous as to deserve all the derision anyone cares to cast their way.
Argent Stonecutter Emergency Mustelid Join date: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 20,263	03-05-2006 10:37 From: Introvert Petunia When an software firm is capable of deferring a release by a week because "QA encountered a major problem with some of the new functionality in the 1.8.4 code" and then has to release an emergency patch later that same day and then four and a half hours later decides the "optional" patch is now "mandatory", it becomes rather difficult to believe that they have any idea what they are doing. Sounds like standard operating procedure in the software industry to me.
Introvert Petunia over 2 billion posts Join date: 11 Sep 2004 Posts: 2,065	03-05-2006 11:19 From: Argent Stonecutter Sounds like standard operating procedure in the software industry to me. I agree in part: it is SOP in software firms that fail. Even Microsoft has stopped releasing patches that break more than they fix and you no longer have to say "whatever you do, don't install that Microsoft patch!". In the games industry, Rockstar is notable for rarely having to release any patches for their products. Maxis can do it, EA slightly less so. What they don't do is make the same mistakes every few weeks for years on end. Even earthworms learn from experience.
Argent Stonecutter Emergency Mustelid Join date: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 20,263	03-05-2006 13:43 From: Introvert Petunia I agree in part: it is SOP in software firms that fail. Even Microsoft has stopped releasing patches that break more than they fix and you no longer have to say "whatever you do, don't install that Microsoft patch!". Um, actually, it was Microsoft that I was thinking of. If EVERYONE in the world had to pick up a patch for it to happen, Microsoft would be in big trouble because, well, they issue hotfixes all the time that you aren't supposed to install unless you have a problem they fix. Most people don't need to care, because they're not all running the same version and patch level. Lindel Labs would have to be a whole lot bigger than they are to be able to afford supporting multiple versions of clients.

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Update on texture issues -- a bug found and fixed; one major issue remains