client performance

Thanks for the suggestions, will try it...

As far as:

Well, it's not because people are cheap... some have a hard enough time just affording the DSL, let alone dial-up connection out there. Some computers are hand-me-downs as much as it stinks to think of it like that... and for some financial situations... certain people have other more important things to sink money into... car payments, rent, groveries, etc. As far as not coming online... well, quite frankly, SL's not the center of the universe... even There as far as I know still supports ME and 98... yes, There, direct competitor of SL. As does Active Worlds, Anarchy Online, Never Winter Nights, etc... the list could go on and on. It's not always about cheap, it's about what's plausable. Virtual communities aren't the only thing to the internet, so some might pay for that net connection to go into SL, to web browse, email, etc... why do you think I paid for the other 3 accounts? Because money doesn't exactly grow on trees, and no offense, but I do find it rather funny when I run across people that act like it does... this is the 21st century... money might be a bit more plentiful than it was back in the day, but prices are skyrising... even gas prices... so not everybody in the world has $100 to drop on a new OS because one piece of software they're using stops working... and as sad as it is to say, I know some that do both SL and There... that actually liked SL more... and when they couldn't SL anymore cause of their "antequated OS"... they cancelled their SL account, and went back to There. So, by not being more supportive to the paying customer, SL in turn in the long run will lose userbase/customer-base... it's reality. Sometimes, you do need backwards compatibility... not supporting 95 I could understand, but even as a network engineer, I go into some offices that still have one or two systems kicking about with 98... because they have software for their company that HAS to be run, that bonks out when run on anything higher than 98, Does seem odd... upgrade is necessary, but at times upgrade won't allow the old items to run... go figure.

And as far as running on Dos... I'm being realistic whereas you're bieng extreme... Dos 6 didn't even have a GUI outside of Dosshell... notice I didn't mention Win95 either... however 5 years believe it or not doesn't exactly make something "old", I've been around computers since *thinks* the mid-80s I guess I'd have to say... and beleive me, being around computers that long, 5 years for an OS is hardly old. (Though, I guess if they can't access SL, that's saved money they could use to buy the OS... however, at that point, no more SL... once again, SL losing more users; and in my friends' cases... if I'm paying for their SL, obviously they probably can't afford a new OS... ). Which also brings me back to one of my other original points... some people say they do virtual communities because they don't have all the money in the world to beef out a computer for the latest MMORPGs... but again, isn't that what's being suggest for the "virtual community" of SL? *shrugs* What I'm suggesting to have more support for a wider base wouldn't hurt those that can already run it, just allow others to use it... whereas by terminating that access possibility, it's making SL only usable by the "privelaged" few? Hrm... doesn't seem that logical in my views.

PS - as fpr myself... again, money doesn't grow on trees... even paying for those 3 other accounts is hard on me financially at times...

Little pole... how many out there think $100-$200 out of the blue for a new OS is an easily spent expendature that you could just whip out of your pocket at any given time?

Btw Chosen Few... I'm saying this totally from 3rd person perspective... not taking any sides... guess maybe even the voice of wisdom...

Yeah... that Siro guy might be rather upset... and people will fume and rant when overly upset... and even as funny as some of your posts are... some do sorta' "prod with a stick"... just a fair warning... nothing wrong with debate or challenging... just don't let it seep over the boundaries of trolling.

But for the record, I do still have to agree with his original post... I mean, check this forum alone... see all the threads popping up from irate users because of so many problems? I mean, no program I've seen have I ever had to set the clock back to use it, unless it was pirated (which no, not suggesting SL is of course). I mean... yes, with progress there's going to be a flaw or two, I realize that... but problem here is... when I first started using SL about 6 months ago I guess... SL ran smooth etc... and yes, I was just as optimistic about the updates as any person, the progress, the improvements. There were some client issues at the time... some which are still there and still not fixed. And with each update a new issue tends to come up... some they fix, some are still there. Well, from what I can tell the "still there" pile is a bit snowballing at a rapid downhill movement. There was one thread I saw where someone said, and I quote, "fix the already existing problems and then improve"... and I'll use There as an example here... There has issues... some of which keep going unfixed in each update, and there are There users too that are unhappy about it. *shrugs* These people, as paying customers, do have a right to voice out against it... they're paying hard-earned dollars for a service, that even though trying to progress and grow, is at the same time, digging a lot of holes under a lot of people... and again, if you look at the number of threads in this one forum alone... Siro isn't the only one that feels this way... it's a rather general opinion... not saying you Chosen Few don't have your issues also, we all do... but time to face the facts somewhat... I, as many others, hopped on what appeared to be a stable SL client, liked what I saw, chose to continue paying... now we're paying for a client that's sinking faster than a battleship that just got slammed into by a submarine; okay that might be a bit extreme... but we are paying by the month... every time a person can't run SL, SL crashes, they can't login, they get lagged off the SL server, etc... that's just shortening that month they're paying for, and that time as far as I know isn't creditted towards the account. Another thread put it well when they said, "beta testing is free... odd they'd release this patch on the general public that are paying... perhaps they should have taken it to beta test before final release". And finally, to quote what many others have been saying in this forum... about SL, about Linden Labs, and about the issues... "this is getting old".

No worries, Rayne. There are no hard feelings at work on my end. I hope my soundcard advice worked for you.

As for Siro, frankly the only reason I've kept responding to him is just to see what he'll come up with next. Maybe it's a personal flaw on my part, but I find it highly amusing to take people who comlain just for the sake of complaining and watch their creativity go to work to find new avenues when their original arguments are proven to be unfounded. I hope that's not sadistic of me.

As for the clock setback thing, that was obviously a major glitch, but don't forget it was fixed very quickly. How many other companies have that kind of response time? A new client was compiled and released within hours of the start of the problem.

Thank you Rayne.

Chosen, my arguements are not unfounded. The problems exist. People are -still- having them. Others are also complaining about them. YOU are having them, if not all of the same ones. Both you and others DO seem to defend bugs by seeming to prefer to not have them immediately fixed. I am curious why anyone would do that.

As to fixing all the bugs before implementing ANYTHING new: YES! HELL YES! I started in 1.4. I can't really say what happened before then, but since then I didn't expect 1.5 until everything was fixed. I fully expected Havok 2 (which a Linden said we'd have) by 1.6.

Further, since you do admit you're deliberately just prodding me, please go do something else. It is a personal flaw and I hope you work through it.

*bump*

But, Chosen, aren't you aware the clock thing has happened many times before ?
We are told it was likely an expired security certificate.

If it IS the same cause as before, this really shouldn't be happening.

My confidence in their professionalism is just beginning to waver. Of course there will be bugs, and new bugs, But should ones this big (actual "prevents-login" bugs) get through testing to be tried on us, in a whole sequence of little twitches and tweaks trying to get things right incrementally through trial and error?

Siro, you hardly have me to blame for being prodded. You did that to yourself all on your own by choosing to focus on the negative when there are so many positive things you could be devoting your energies towards. I'm sorry if my pointing that out has offended you, but it is the truth. Frankly, I'm suprised that my comment to Rayne came as a shock to you. Every time you changed the subject, I pointed it out and then mentioned I was responding to indulge you. I also mentioned several times that I believed you were arguing just for the sake of arguing, but that I would indulge youanyway. I thought it was pretty obvious each and every time why I was responding to you. I've been totally upfront about it all along.

Also, don't forget, it was you who decided to invite me into a lengthy discussion. I would have been content just to have answered your initial "questions" once, and then moved on, but you specificallyasked me by name to continue.

At no time was anything I've said designed just to goad you on. I meant every word of it. Anyone who knows me knows I ONLY ever speak the truth, and that's all I've done here. As part of that truth I've been open about the fact that for me this discussion is far more about curiosity in regard to how you're going to keep the argument going than it is about the actual topics of the argument, since most of the topics are ludicrous, and it has been obvious from the start you weren't going to accept any semblence of a positive viewpoint anyway.

The fact is the argument you invested the most time and energy into, the one about video not working, WAS completely unfounded. Video does in fact work. That's been proven a thousand times already, and you know it, which is why you won't touch the subject anymore. You instead shifted gears into "I don't care if it works", and "Linden shouldn't have spent the time to make something I'm not going to use, even though thousands of other people love it", both of which are fairly rediculous statements. As I said earlier, if that's not a cry of "sour grapes" I don't know what is.

Those points that were not unfounded I readily agreed with. There were several in your first post, and there have been a few since. When you've had good ideas, I've told you so; when you've pointed out real issues, I've agreed; and when you've said things that were totally bogus I've called you on them. What more could you have wanted?

If all you wanted was another complainer to join you, as you mentioned there are plenty, but as I said, you chose to ask me to continue. Surely you had to know by my first post what my views were on the various things you were saying, and what my reasons were for responding to them. You asked for more; you got it.

As for my "flaw", I hardly think that chronic curiosity is as serious of a flaw as chronic complaining is, but I don't think either of us should lower the discussion to that level. It's one thing to talk about your own characteristics; it's quite another to talk about someone else's. I'll reciprocate the sentiment though. I hope one day you are able to grow out of your complaint obsession as well.


...And Lindar, no I was not aware that the clock thing had happened before. I've been in SL literally almost every single day for the past 16 months, and this is the first I've seen or heard of it. Whether it has or hasn't though, obviously someone screwed up, and they shouldn't have. Renewing a certificate is a simple enough task. However, since complaining about it now is not going to accomplish anything, I choose not to.

One of my probs with performance right now is very inconsistent download streaming -- at some times of the day, it'll be like 60K/sec (KiloBytes) which I understand is pretty good (I still have overhead and quite a bit of headroom past that), but that's usually in the wee hours. During peak hours it may crawl to 10K/sec, which is unhappy and sluggy.

Even with setting Maximum Bandwidth to 1000, I don't think I've ever sustained a peak of that rate.

I don't recall SL's network doing this to me during my first few months but it seems to have become more evident. I'm going to do more testing -- my traceroutes and ping times check out pretty a-ok. Hrmmm.

Chosen, I've seen it on about 3 (just possibly 2) previous occasions I think, in the last 6 months. Maybe I've been unlucky.

Trolls don't often admit to being such, that was the suprise. This is the techinical issues forum. When people have issues of the techinical kind, they bring them up here. This is not the SL glorification forum where we extoll all it's wonderful issues, rather all the bad things are often brought up.


You seemed aware that my questions may have been rhetorical in your very first post. I didn't ask -you- to answer them. And I find you still misinformed on the nature of video and bandwidth consumption.



Oh sure, yet that's a lie because you've specifically stated otherwise that you've been deliberately goading me. I don't have to accept a positive viewpoint in this forum as you outline. I made that pretty clear right off the bat. A truly 'positive' viewpoint would be the release notes for the next build containing all the bugfixes and that I'd accept. Why do you think fixing the bugs is ludicrous? Do you just not care about the client performance?



No, see, you invested most of your time into video because you seem quite happy with video. Most of my responses are rather terse, yours on the other hand are pages. If you want to do a volume comparison, most of my arguement is about the grid. Most of YOUR arguement is about video.



I think the problem here is that we're attempting to call each other on the same exact points. The problem here is I'm in the right place to call out bugs and you are not in the right place to extoll the virtues of SL. I'm not here to debate you at all. I really don't need to. I have bugs, on the one side, which are documented and reported. This is my thread for bumping them every release.

Well, I dunno about compiling a whole new client... I mean, usually something like that is just a small typo or a misplaced brace in code, never know though. (Though, from what I'm hearing, guess it was an expired security certificate, which even as Chosen stated, is a very easily fixable issue.)



Indeed, 6 months ago... not sure what was out then... 1.4 or 1.5... yeah, maybe I did start in 1.4. But I will say, every other program out there (well, with the exception of WINDOWS )... fixes the problems they have before they add more. Quintessential Player, WinAmp, Games (/w downloadable updates)... I mean most have those little files that have somewhere in them "fixed issues", etc... they document it all, and tell you that they're fixing bugs as they go; and yes SL is fixing *some* of the bugs... but as I said in some of my earlier posts... there's been issues in SL that are still there from when I started... have seen some quoted/reported that were there for others even before I started, where the user is still saying it's there. I mean, honestly, if you want to put in a small change, that's okay... but quite honestly, let's look at some of the majorly known issues:

- People lagging/crashing while flying because all the private/public (or too many) [ever flown through a congested area where there's several parcels that have local sound set to off?? ouch... doesn't necessarily lag me as much as it does give me a headache after a bit lol] parcels that automatically play music because the music doesn't have the "option" to default to stopped. Notice I say option, could make to radio button, or a little click option under play streaming audio... just to default it to stopped, even HTML has this option.
NOTE: And I really do hope a Linden reads this... the option stated above... shouldn't need to be "voted" on under feature suggestions... should even need votes wasted on it... this one should just be a throw in there cause it's convenient issue.

- Video issues (including random crashes... especially in highly congested/primmed areas) with ATI cards and other cards (even with the latest drivers, or with SL in working condition but missing options).

- The needing to change the date bug.

Now that's just a few... and don't get me wrong, streaming video is a nice option and all... however, and gonna' focus on the video issue here a bit... if people are crashing because of limited video support with their vid cards already due to high prims, or can't use agp acceleration... throwing streaming video into the works is like tying a barbell to their ankle... just sorta' makes the weigh-down pile even heavier... granted you have to tell it to play them, but still... kind of salt in the wounds for those who don't have all video options, or random crashes as it is due to limited video support, especially when SL can implement something that albeit an option to play, adds more to the issue, and isn't exactly "possible" for some. I mean, yeah, there are some really beefed up machines out there that can't even play stream videos smoothly. When Linden Labs doesn't address the other problems and fix them, then throws that on top of them... well, it'd be like a car manufacturer knowing their vehicles over-rev, over-heat, or blow engines, and then telling you they can throw an overdrive nitro booster into the engine which will blow it up even more quickly.

Another thing... as far as "positive outlook" on SL goes... quite honestly, we all had ouir "positive outlooks" on it before, else none of us would be electing to pay for it. But again, Siro is right, this is the technical issues forum... if you're under technical issues, it's usually because a) you're offering helpful/fixing suggestions or b) SL is bombing out for you; at least those are the 2 most common I can think of. And yes, as many can agree SL does have some good points, I even said in my posts, it has promise and potential... however... no paying customer that I've ever seen is willing to sit around for many moons with their (pardon my french) thumb up their butt, waiting for the something they paid for, to work as it was said to. There was one post earlier in this very thread I believe, with an ATI issue... the ATI card was on supported cards, and walah, problems... granted, their problem could just be drivers yes... but even with ATI actually "working" with SL, you're only standing on 1 leg and not both.

As far as video taking bandwidth etc, I did somewhat touch on that here... but to clear the air on that... here's a good test for you to see how much slowdown it can cause. If you have a website, make a simple .htm file called "test.htm" or whatever you wish to call it. Put some text in it, some pictures in it, even some music. With text, pictures, music, we'll use that as the example of the "SL before". Load it up and watch how fast (or slow) the progress bar is for loading. Now upload a video to your webspace... maybe 2. And none of those 1 second clips... like an actual 2-5 minute video. Make a reference call to it in that same .htm file. Clear your browser cache, etc. Load that page up again and watch how much longer the progress bar takes. Yes, bit more of a slowdown... that's "SL after". Now to polish up that equation, keep that difference in mind, and then work in the thought of ths being streaming video, some of which is constantly updating, meaning, as it updates and has new media/video, when your system doesn't have that bit it's trying to show, it'll download even more. (Example: places that might stream an online tv station, or streaming CNN news live, or something).

Hey, don't get me wrong, the idea is great, will make for kewl video walls in clubs, and slick TV's in homes with the right scripts for flipping channels... which is the positive side. Now the negative side is... would have been even better to see, if it was being done on top of a stable client. Yes, you're going to have your doubters out there, pecimists, ones that say they won't even touch video because this reason or that... but outside of them, I'm sure Siro, Chosen, myself, several were excited and still are for that option. Siro decides to post in anger, as do I... because that option that'd be *nice* to use isn't turning out so *nice* since alot of the previous problems WEREN'T fixed. IF those problems were fixed and all was stable... and everything worked smoothly, I'm sure Siro's post wouldn't be here... meaning... given the proper reasons and proper motivation (in this case SL rolling on square tires) people are going to be upset... and once again, when the product you're paying for, turns out to not be the product you've purchased... yeah, that leaves all the room in the world to complain about it... your typical consumer won't settle for something less than they've paid for... it's called "getting your money's worth".

EDIT: Holy terrible typos Batman... *shock* ...should have fixed all of 'em, typed this in fresh off of waking up from a nap lol.

I honestly couldn't (and obviously haven't) said it better Rayne. Thank you once again.

First, I'm not a troll, and you know it. That's a copout on your part, and it's petty. I haven't called you any names, so you'd do well to do me the same courtesy. Please don't hide your intelligence by dropping to the discussion to that level.

Once again, you're changing the subject to avoid talking about the original issues. You've found a new complaint target, me, and your devoting your energies to that instead of putting them where they belong.

I can hardly believe all this has come out of my poking fun at myself for 2 sentences in a response to another person. Geez, what a trigger finger you have.


Come on now, if you didn't want a response, you wouldn't have posted. Surely you didn't expect everyone to agree with all your points. So yes, I answered your questions, ONCE. Then you asked me to come back for more. As I said, I would not have entered into continued discourse had you not mentioned my name, and indicated there were things about my answers you wanted to discuss.


Good, let's talk about who exactly is "misinformed". My comments about video and bandwidth were derived from observation. Yours were speculative. First you assumed video couldn't work for all the made-up reasons you could think of even though it does, then when you had to accept that it does work, you went on to assume that basic SL functions wouldn't work at the same time even though they do. So let's review:

FACT: video works - CHECK
FACT: SL does not slow down or malfunction while it plays - CHECK
FACT: SL's portion of total available bandwitdth is a small fraction - CHECK
FACT: Quicktime's portion of total available bandwidth is also a small fraction - CHECK
FACT: SL + Quicktime together does not equal bandwidth congestion - CHECK

Okay, I'm feeling well informed. How about you?

As I mentioned earlier, if you ARE having problems, which I know you're not because you said you've got video turned off, but if you are, then check your network settings and make sure they are properly configured. I've talked to more than a few people who have had numerous rezzing issues, border crossing issues, etc. and adjusting network settings has fixed it.

Oh, wait, I forgot if you fixed it you wouldn't be able to complain about it anymore. Nevermind.


Indulgence is not goading. Curiosity about your next response is not goading. Entering a discussion out of such curiosity is not goading.

I made no secret that I was simply indulging your complaint ridden mind when I began, and I continued to mention this in each and every post. Why are you harping on it now just because I happened to mention it to someone else as well?

As I've already said, the content of my posts has been 100% valid, and written in the spirit of truly applying my on-topic point of view to each of the issues you have raised. Just because my reason for doing so was weighted by my curiosity as to what you'd come up with next because I didn't expect you were the type to actually listen to anyone's opinion but your own doesn't mean that the discussion wasn't legitimate. I expressed my viewpoints on the topics you raised as acurately and descriptively as I could.

And I never said fixing bugs was ludicrous. Please don't put words in my mouth. Of course I want them fixed. What I said was many (not all) of the topics of this discussion have been ludicrous. I think you know what they are, but I'll spell some of them out for you. The fact that you are complaining just to complain is ludicrous, the fact that you said video doesn't work when it does is ludicrous, the fact that you early on refused to accept that SL framerate and video framerate are unrelated was ludicrous, implying that you know better how to manage LL's time than they do was ludicrous, saying 15 FPS was unplayable was ludicrous, pretending you didn't care about video after you harped over it for so long was ludicrous, implying playing a video would render the client unusable or severely disabled was ludicrous, etc.

Of course I care about client performance, and you know that. Again, please stop trying to hide your intelligence. Youre not fooling anyone. As I've said time and time again, no company can or should EVER devote 100% of its technical personnel to bug-fixing, so I see nothing wrong with allowing the one's who are not working in that capacity to do what they do. I doubt that this will sink into your brain though, since you now seem intent on harping on "Chosen doesn't want bugs fixed" as your new trophy complaint, but here's hoping.


Look, I initially responded to every one of your points equally. You chose to center the discussion around the video thing. In your first response to me, video was the one issue you said you wanted to "dig it" me about. In your second, you asked me a ton of questions about entering and leaving video-enabled areas, rezzing objects in them, testing features, etc. It wasn't until after all of that that you gave up that particular ghost, pretending you never cared about it begin with.

Again, my friend, you picked the video topic as the one to continue for further discussion, so don't lay that on me. Your gird thing didn't come up until much later, and it hasn't even been an argument. If you recall I agreed with your idea, and told you I believe it is the direction LL is headed in. You might want to re-read the history of this thread because you seem to have forgotten quite a bit.


Actually the purpose of this forum is to "Discuss technical problems and ask questions related to the underpinnings of Second Life", as is written directly underneath its title on the forum index (amphasis added). Nowhere does it say complian, complain, complain your little heart out, and never say anything nice. A discussion without opposing, or at least differing, points of view is impossible, and again I stress it was you who asked me to keep the discussion going.

From: Siro Mfume

I'm not here to debate you at all. I really don't need to.

Then why did you say you wanted to "dig at" me? Why have you asked me questions? You can't have it both ways. Either you wanted to debate the topic or you didn't. Every indication so far has been that you did.

From: Siro Mfume

I have bugs, on the one side, which are documented and reported. This is my thread for bumping them every release.

Well then King Siro, you enjoy your particular castle. Me, I'd pick something a little grander, but if you feel the need to own a complaint-fest thread, to each his own I guess.