Watermarking textures?

Well I give up on the wood chip one, 't was a fun challenge Congratulations to whoever manages to find it. I for one hope people do find a way to watermark their textures and protect their hard work!!


@ Michael: so you managed to extract and get rid of the watermark in the wood chip image then? Congratulations.

can't stamp out what you don't see...


depends on the method, some will preserve under screen shot, some wont, some can survive conversion, or resize, or cropping, or single direction resizeing, some can't


attack through obscurity, I've seen the same pics posted by different people each claiming it was original... but if you never see it, you don't know it's been copied...however if they start selling it and don't become "big" your're still being stolen from, and someone is still profiting off your work... not cool IMB. if you find them out it's nice to have proof and a way get compensation



I'll assume you just snapshot'd them and blew them up....

here's my [unpopular] opinion...
if you have resources to legitimately buy them... bad

if you are using them as a substantial part of your own "original" works or profiting from it's use... VERY bad

if you are saving them as reference ideas on the HD to prevent things like pages missing in the future, being unable to find them and reference the idea contained within... not bad (it's a questionable use of the journallistic archiving clause, but IMHO the intent is preserved)

Michael, thank you for being so entertaining Where were you when George W. Bush was hiring for White House Press Secretary?

Seriously though - Why do you suppose Digimarc is still in business?

Here's one for your rubber stamp tool:



The fairly weak invisible watermark (it had to survive JPEG compression) in this version of the wood chips texture is VERY EASY to extract and obliterate since the previous wood chips texture I posted is the PRIMER for extracting the watermark embedded here.

Unfortunately, the stronger watermark still remains in this texture too, and without the primer for that watermark it's going to be extremely hard to find. Even if you completely rubber stamp out the secondary watermark, the original watermark may still remain, unless you go through the effort to thoroughly rubber stamp the entire texture. Then, you're probably 90% assured of obliterating both watermarks.

Here's another wood chips texture you won't find anywhere on the web, or in SL because I took the photo myself in the back yard:



It took me 20 seconds from snap to load onto my computer, then another 10 seconds to crop, resize, and save as JPEG. It may or may not have a watermark in it. I'm not telling. Either way, it doesn't matter because everyone has my permission to use it. BTW it's not seamless. I was lazy .

The point here is - it's a LOT less work to snap a new photo than it is to worry about obliterating a watermark from a ripped image that may or may not have a watermark in it.

Even with making it seamless, yeah.. but not everyone has cool wood chip stuff around their house like you!

One word - Mayang

http://www.mayang.com/textures/Plants/html/Dried%20Dead%20Plants/index.html

They're not unique (because every graphic artist uses this stuff), and if you intend to use them to start up a texture business of your own, you'd better read the FAQ's because the images are watermarked visibly and invisibly, unless you BUY them. They do this because they get your RL info if you buy them, and they get to prove that thier web images originated from Mayang through watermarking if you don't. There are also usage restrictions:

"You cannot use the textures for anything that directly competes with Mayang. This includes, putting the textures on your own website, selling them, or giving them away. This restriction includes the textures themselves, as well as any minor modifications, for example, you may not make the texture seamless or tileable and then sell them."

I understand that you guys feel like adding 'double-secret' watermarks to your textures will save you from theft--but it's just not the case. You have no idea who is using your work...hell, it could even be a guy from WETA who used your wood chip texture for a specialFX scene in LotR. I'm not kidding...it's happened. I'm not saying your tiny-rez texture example is a realistic example--we know pros tend to use uber-high rez stuff --especially if it's close to the camera.

3D modelers (professional or hobbyist) get their stuff from all over. The good ones--mind you--usually create their own because they have so much more control over the end product...however, sometimes there's no time for that. In these cases they will either hijack someone's texture, or use a freeware one.

And like I said before...the majority of textures out there that people claim as their own, have actually been ripped from somewhere anyhow...

And in the end...how closely do you the texture-creator actually look at someone else's models to see if you're being ripped off? I've created a lot of textures in my day...and I've never seen one of my own...maybe it's because I'm not looking.

ps. who would be crazy enough to use your wood chips when there is a big, unrepeatable twig in the scene...lol. I'm just teasing...texture artist joke..ha ha. Anyway.

Later guys. I'm glad I entertain some of you.

Let me restate a point I've been making all along - Watermarks don't stop theft, they prove origin. Smart thieves will take unwatermarked stuff if given the choice between watermarked, or not.

The images in this thread are simple examples, not real encrypted watermarks. They are meant as a learning tool for some and as a means of having a bit of fun for others who like puzzles. That's all.

Again - Why is Digimarc still in business?

Digimarc is in business, because people like to feel secure...it's a false sense of security, I assure you. In my experience, it is marginally rare to find one of your stolen textures on another person's model...it's just not worth the hassle or the purchasing of 3rd party software.

Better pull all your money out of the bank then, because the weak spots in digimarc's security are account names/information and PIN's, not thier proprietary watermarking algorithm. They also charge an arm and a leg, which is why I prefer to do things myself.

I think the point Michael is trying to make is that they shouldn't feel more secure for having watermarked their images... and at that level I have to agree.

I disagree about the possibility of seeing ones own work copied... especially within SL, but also dependant on your presence within a given area.... big names get ripped constantly... and need a good way to prove their work if they persue compensation (in the case of others profiting from their works) in the case of the smalltime artist, they tend to travel in limited circles, and may not notice theft if it travels in different circles.... but that usually doesn't happen... many of the theives are in the same little community and get found out...

but the major reason to do so, is because if your work suddenly shows up on a tshirt, and you didn't put it there, someone owes you money.... and watermarks help you collect...

don't think that can happen? a popular web comic artist just recently got ripped, his duplicated work (right down to the mistakes of perspective) was included in a gallery opening which nettted the thief quite a sum of money... the theft wasn't discoved by the artist, but by his fans...

someone wants to promote my work and sell it, I got no problem with it... but since I did the work, I want at least a percentage. it's wrong to profit off others work by theft, period.

and just remember, even small thefts can have huge reprecussions later down the road... from a business perspective it's a real risk if one of your employees nicks something off the net, and uses it in your product... but only most notable if the product becomes a big seller....

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that opinion unless you and Michael are willing to make the distinction between security from theft and security of authorship, and apply that opinion only to the security from theft part. Falsely claiming authorship is different from theft although the former usually, but not always, involves the later.

It might be very easy for me to claim authorship of an unpublished copy of work I didn't create if it couldn't be attributed to another author, either through a confirmed original, visible or invisible signature, style of workmanship, or date of creation. A lot of this evidence can be provided by watermarking. The true author might find it very difficult to prove thier work in such a situation if he/she had no more evidence to base authorship on than me, or was unable to defend themself. No theft of goods is involved here, just true or false claims of authorship. This was the whole premise of the story in the film "Proof" (with Anthony Hopkins, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Jake Gyllenhaal), if anyone has seen this.

Well said. It's all well and good, what you've said, but it doesn't discount the situations I've illustrated.

I've been in this business a long time--and although IP security and awareness is a solid habit to get into, my personal experience throughout the years has demonstrated (especially in the realm of textures) these measures to be futile.

*shrugs*

It's not worth my time, and it never has been. I mean no disrespect to those that want to secure their IPs...I'm just stating my opinions.

that was my intent. sorry, I'm not always concise in descriptions.