Working in 3D - Export to 2D?

Hi everyone!
First I want to say "thank you" to all of you that post such invaluable information about working with the graphics that builds our lives..

Then, I'm used to working in 2D and Photoshop CS2 as well as Corel PSP, but I have a hard time adjusting mentally to see the 3D aspects of things.

Simply put, can I do my design work in a 3D editing program (if so, can I have recommendations on such programs?), and then when I have a result I can live with geometrically, export my work and use it for final polishing in Photoshop and finally do the export to Targa?

My main problem is to "see" how curvings and straight lines interact and transforms from my 2D UV grid onto the model. It simply takes too many save-test-edit cycles to get anything that doesn't look like my 4-year old daughter made...

Thanks for caring!
Yours,
Suzhanna.

What types of things are you trying to texture? Are you doing textures for buildings? Furniture? Clothing? Skins? Knowing that will make it easier for people to give you advice

Sorry, my mistake.. I'm a bit tired, it's close to bedtime in this end of the 1t world.
I'm trying to make clothing, and right now it's the legs that's my big annoyance. I guess I certainly can do it by the templates only, but as I mentioned, cycle from change to test and back to edit is really long.
Eventually I think I can make the mental adjustment, but for now it's just too hard since I've only worked with 2D in PS.

Eventually you'll start to get a sense of what's where and what areas distort. There are a few things you can do to help. Upload the templates as textures and make a skin out of them. Take screenshots from many angles of your avatar wearing the skin. That will let you see what parts of the template end up on what parts of the body. Offline previewing can help a lot too. Check out the avatar texture previewer linked in the sticky at the top of this forum. There are topography guides linked in the template sticky that may also be useful to you. Finally, the easiest way is to invest in a full fledged 3d paint app that allows you to paint directly on the model such as Deep Paint 3D or Bodypaint. Neither has the quality of tools that you'll find in photoshop, but either in combination with a good 2d paint program can make things easier.

There is also ghostpaint if he wants to invest in maya or 3ds max (forget which ones its for) that allows a direct integration between the 3d program and photoshop however this is a more costly way to do it.... Would cost well over 2 grand easily.... However its missing parts as well such as projection paint last i looked.... Could invest in poser load up the SL model and load the clothing onto it either way its going to take some time constantly resaving and stuff....

Learning to do it in 2D is the best way to really go about it and im saying that as someone in an industry where i need to know..... BodyPaint 3d is good in it current incarnation and has some 2d photo editing but again its not photoshop.... Your never going to get as detailed as you would with photoshop using a 3d paint program.... I myself end up using a combination of numerous products to get my desired results as there are just certain things I can do better in certain programs and keep teaching myself more and more and discovering more as I go along and trying to learn how to do everything I do in all program even if it requires extra steps because while it may take a few extra steps that may be easier for one or turn out better results.

So like Chip who i quoted recommends take pics and learn to do it in 2d while it may consume some time early on the payoff will be better down the road.

I've been leaving Ghostpainter off my list because it requires 3ds Max (approx $4000 retail), and Photoshop (approx $650), and Ghostpainter itself (about $300), and it also has yet to be upgraded to support Max 9 or CS2 (and CS3 is already out). If you happen to already have Max 8 and PS7 then its highly recommended.

Edit: For anyone wondering (like me), this is the latest on the Cebas Ghostpainter forum...



Doesn't look like I'll be upgrading to CS3 any time soon, and Max 10 will probably ship next November.

yeah its a shame =/ I have 3ds Max and Maya readily available to me....... But considering my real life profession its not shocking as work pays for it as its necessary for me to do my job. I still prefer working in 2D though even though i have access to alot of 3d painting tools and the like.... However........ Im used to working with better UV maps and meshes then what SL's avatars use where seams and the like arnt really a problem or I'll set out the mesh myself if im buidling a model..... Its really a shame that programs like 3ds Max and Maya arnt mroe affordable to the average person...

3ds Max is a 3500 dollar program.... Maya unlimited is 7000 Maya Complete runs 2000 + as you said PS runs about 600-700 dollars and then ghost painter itself costs money...... There is integration with BodyPaint for 3ds Max as well....... And deep paint is also good but as i said i really prefer 2d vs 3d texturing just the finite details arnt really gotten in 3d painting...... The problem with 3ds Max and Maya alike are that AutoDesk owns both and monopolizes the industry since they own the two leading full 3d programs that exist. There are more out there sure but they arnt near as close...... Maya is THE industry standard with 3ds Max a little behind it..... 3ds Max being the easier one to learn on........

Also the 3d paint programs while good rely heavily on the u.v mesh of the object and in many cases SL's is lacking in that sense you also still lose out a bit as you cant paint both sides..... I leave a good deal of programs off my "list" as most people cant really afford the outrageous prices put out there by software manufacturers. 600-700 for photoshop is ridiculous .... But again people milk prices when they are considered industry standards and it hurts the home user.....

The software industry really wonders why Software Piracy is so rampant. I think the prices can tell you why. When the programs out of most middle class peoples price range and they still want it they are going to go that route...... I support Open Source stuff alot myself in that light. I dont think everything needs to be free or open source but i do think to a degree that programs should be made affordable to the consumers....

Also from what i gather CS3 is already delayed (it was supposed to be out the end of march wasnt it?) and Ill get max 10 if it comes out when my company gives me a copy. Adobe really needs to focus on handling alpha channels better its quite funny when you consider gimp can process them better and its free =/. Well lets just hope CS3 actually shows a good improvement and that its not just UI changes because frankly thats just fruitless....

hehe, Lina, I hear ya. It's pretty much the same for me. I'm self employed, but Max is an integral part of my job so I've had it at my disposal long before I discovered SL. I'm on the subscription so I get the upgrades automatically on two seats. Autodesk's new 12 month release cycle (instead of the old 1 is really playing hell with plugin developers. It's usually months after I receive my upgrades before I get around to installing them due to plugin dependencies.

PS CS3 Extended looks worth the upgrade (like the support for 3d objects - does this mean it can now be used for 3d paint all by itself? The demo movie doesn't show enough to decide if it's a useful addition or a bit of a gimmick). I'll wait for some in-depth reviews before I make up my mind on it. I too prefer to do most of my texturing work in 2D, and use 3d mostly for projection mapping, seam touchup, and baking. It's just much faster if that's what you're used to.

Aye i have no idea about CS3 really i havent tried it out yet i know some people that tried out the beta of it or whatever but im really unsure..... Ill end up trying it anyways and using it if it truly is better. I used to be self employed ..... Freelance i guess is the word.... The problem is I do game related texturing mainly and when i was freelance i did work in asian market games.... It was far from stable in the least sadly.... So I ended up after finishing up proper schooling going to work for a big name game company so I'd have a steady pay check...... I do like my job though as i mainly work in land/nature related texturing/objects it tends to reach this tedium where i would rather not see nature in real life. Maya gets better results then Max but Max is easier to train for and develop plugins for....

What we really need is these offline sandbox things people keep going on about....Being able to load up the stuff onto an actual avatar before hand to see how things line up.... There is so much potential that could come out of that type of thing really. I'm saddened being in the industry that the programs arnt affordable to the average person..... Because i know many a talented person that could do quite alot with them..... Blender is becoming a good modding standard as far as that goes and CrystalBlend which is blender tied in for the crystalspace engine should also be quite interesting.....Many potential programs that could help SL if people make them. I'd love to see more open projects for SL come up

http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/photoshopextended/

May help gather some of the features in extended.... Looks interesting but we'll have to see if its just a gimmick or what.... The markup of 350 dollars more it better offer something a heck of alot better considering thats a little more then the full price of PS + 1/2 a 2nd copy .... Im going to be watching it with alot of skepticism though. Needless to say i cant knock PS short of its alpha abilities =/

Hrrmm....

Not to be a whining bitch, but this became a little bit too off for me.. Oh, and Lina.. This is a "she", not a "he"...

Anyway, software investment isn't a point for me, I'm working in a large company with divisions that do all kinds of graphics work, so I actually have access to all the programs you've mentioned above, either directly or via our Metaframe system.

That said, I'll try to steer this into my own problem again. What I'm trying to make are (among others) straight lines in all directions, both around the legs and vertically in different places. Every try I make will create arcs somewhere.
I guess I could take the easy way out and blame the meshes, but I'm certain this is doable.

Chip, I do have the offline avatar viewer already, and I've uploaded your templates. My workflow so far has been edit -> save -> previewer -> back to edit.

My gut feeling is that it would be easier to paint / draw directly on the avatar model shown in 3D, much like the previewer shows it. But since I don't have any real experience with 3D applications, it would be very nice with your thoughts on which ones to use, tips on workflow etc.

I'm NOT looking at finishing the work in the 3D application, just make an outline of my work and then do all the "real" work with colors, highlights, finish etc in Photoshop CS2 since that's "my native" application to work in.

I know many people would like to spit in my face because of the fact that I want to use a several thousand dollar application to draw some lines in.. But since I have access to them, I think it can make my life easier...

I just don't know which application to use, and how the workflow should look like..

Suz.

If you already have access to something like max from which you can create custom UV mapping and then bake the result back to SL's UV mapping, then the only thing 3D paint will really get you that you couldn't already do is easy seam touchup at the single pixel level, but you can get around that by using the UV tools of the 3d app to project patterns across seams, bake them out to SL mapping, then blend the result into your work in your 2d app. For something like a straight line around the legs, you can just planar project one right where you want it on a new UV channel, then render to texture using the original UV's. Instant straight line converted to the SL templates. That's actually easier than painting it on the av by hand. You could do the same in pretty much any of the previously mentioned apps. If you want the ability to paint directly on the model with a brush, then check out Ghostpainter, Deep Paint 3D, Bodypaint, and Zbrush 2/3. Try the demos (if they have one) and see what feels most familiar.

Thanks Chip!
Are there any more detailed descriptions of these processes available anywhere? Maybe with examples?
I'm new to 3D, so I could need some guidance. I'll look around a little as well to see if I can find something useful, I'm a bit hesitant about asking the wiz people at work..

Not specific to SL that I'm aware of, but pay a visit to the various websites for the applications and check out their demo movies. Ghostpainter is made by Cebas. Deep Paint 3d is by Right Hemisphere. Bodypaint is by Maxon. Zbrush is by Pixologic. Zbrush3 and Ghostpainter have some especially cool demo movies.

I'm not too worried about getting a grip on how to handle simple things within the applications, the bit that makes me nervous is how to get the model UV grid in there (seen hints here in other threads), and then when finished, I would need to export from the 3D application and import it into my PS to put on top on your template.

That last step is what makes me nervous....

It's much easier than it sounds 3d objects can hold more than one set of UVWs and converting between them is much easier than you might think. Let's say you had a complex pattern you wanted around the waist and torso. That would be very challenging to paint by hand dealing with all the idiosyncracies of the SL UV mapping. So instead you'd create it as just a flat square texture, and create a cyllindrical UV map positioned it relative to the torso so that it projects the pattern onto the avatar where you want it. This new UV map would be set to channel 2 (with 1 being the SL mapping). You'd create a material in the 3d app, using your 2d pattern texture, that uses channel 2 rather than channel 1. Then to convert back to SL mapping you'd simply render out to a texture, but you'd render channel 1 and not channel 2. That will cause the results of channel 2 to be rendered according the channel 1's UV layout. At that point you have flat textures ready to drop right onto the templates in photoshop. You can do similar tricks for any other challenging spot on the avatar.

Are you familiar with 3D objects in Illustrator CS2? Perhaps it's like that. If so, the answer to your question would be, no, it can not be used for 3D paint. It's essentially an extruder, rotation shape generator and texture wrapper.

Yeah, it's very hard to tell from the scant information provided. My guess is that it really doesn't do much or they'd have used a more compelling example than wrapping a 2d texture around a cyllinder.

Hi guys, I was just looking for info on SL 3D filetypes and I found this thread.

I'm just a SL beginner but experienced in Photoshop as I'm beta tester of many Adobe applications. I can tell you the new PS CS3 Extended will ROCK for SecondLife users, since Photoshop now includes 3D objects texture editing and exporting..

That is, you can import a test avatar into a PS document, open and edit all the textures and see them applied to your model instantly!

At least, this is what I'm trying to do, but I don't know how to get a 3DS file complete with textures from SL.. If you help me I promise to publish a tutorial on PS CS3 extended!

Ask and ye shall receive. Let us know how it works out in the beta for you.

Thanks guys! The models open correctly into Photoshop CS3 extended, but there's a major issue: Photoshop can only edit existing textures and not create new ones (this is because it has to get wrapping/sizing info coming from the object itself).

Do you have a similar 3ds avatar with all the default jpeg textures applied (body, face, etc) ? If so, you will be amazed . I'm sorry to ask but I'm terribly late with learning SL!

I just found the menu "grab baked texture" in the Client's "client" menu, and of course I thought that could be of use to me.. But it's all grayed out and unavailable...

Anyone knows what it can do, and how to use it?

This only works for clothing that you have full rights on or anything that you have full rights on that can be worn on your body aside from attachments.... Basically the entire thing for an area has to have full rights that includes skins etc.... In which case it grabs a baked texture of that layer which includes the skin and anything else on that layer as they are only split into certain areas..... So the newbie skin you may be able to capture etc but its very hard to do so unless you yourself made the objects. There are other ways but they are considered texture theft and i will not condone or inform people of how to work that out.

I guessed it was something like that.. And no, I'm not looking at stealing something.. I just thought it could be an easy way to get the limiting lines sorted out...
Specifically (right now), I'm looking at making socks and pants, and I thought I'd have a small advantage in making up a plain sock and pants on my skin with the CMFF templates as tattoos and then download the texture from that.

[Edit]
*gah* I reverted to the SL "Test character", and I can grab upper body and head baked textures with my own "tattoos" on, but I never seem to be able to grab the lower body.. So annoying, since that's the one I need...
[/Edit]

Then I'll have all the edges defined on the template.. Oh well, I've just installed Poser 7, Daz3D, Zbrush2, Maya and 3D Studio. At least one or two of them should be able to make my day..

I'll look over the programs to see if I can figure out how to make very simply drawing, like placing a circle around a lef, and straight line along the legs. Then export those lines in the "template" format so I can make the real work in Photoshop.

If anyone have tips, guides and hints on how to that, please do let me know... The guides I've found so far only covers importing templates to the programs, not drawing/painting and exporting.

Chip did some writing on this here, but frankly I don't understand what he's talking about...