has stealing become a cultural norm in SecondLife?

Perhaps because it's significantly easier to share digital file with 100 strangers a day all around the world, than it was to share your physical tape with even 10 people in your city in the same time. Not to mention tracking down the former is quite a bit more convenient, too...

hahahahaha! this is true! piracy hurts no man nor child go hungry! infact! DVD sale profits tend to rise about 10% on each year.. considering Piracy is SO rampant thats not bad is it! electric heated seats in bulletproof mercs all round! hurrah!

Exactly.

And, IIRC, it was either the RIAA or the MPAA who did try to get some heavy restrictions placed on home recording ability a while back (Like, 20 + years ago). I dunno, someone bigger into the "digital rights" movement could tell you better than I could.

At what point have I made enough money off my work that you feel you can tell me to go fuck myself when I ask you to pay like all the honest people did if you want my DVD?

the point is there is NO MONEY BEING LOST.. noone is hurt. when your starving on the streets because your DVD's arent selling due to the fact that every person on earth has gotten it off pirate bay I might start feeling sorry. there are people STARVING in the world.. crusades against piracy make me weep for the state of this fucking race >.<;;;

Wrong. It IS theft. Maybe not by some complicated legal technicality, but morally it is stealing. And copyright infringement IS theft. That is WHY it is a crime.

Can you prove that every single person who pirated a DVD would not have payed to see that DVD at some point in the future?

No?

Dind't think so.

It doesn't matter if sales are increasing - that's not what I'm talking about.

As for starving people, spare me. Wanna know what makes me weep? People who use pathetic, tired, over-used straw-man arguements.

I repeat: Can you name the exact figure, down to the cent, wherein my property rights become your toiletpaper?

Or does Second Life attract people with sociopathic tendencies?

Bangs the Nail on the Head

<waves the hyper-orbiter 310 around>

Heeeeellloooo? I'm noticing a severe lack of respect for the crazed maniac with the evil griefing weapon? Could we stop with the intelligent discussion of virtual theft and begin with the paniced offering of virtual goods in exchange for the illusion of safety?

<serious>

Ok. Let's just ignore the terminology of what is theft or not, and put it in this perspective:

If they sell it, or sell something it's based on, then when they don't pay you, or you use it in a competing product, you are stealing.

No? Think of it this way, picture that they DID get paid for the 'stolen' item, and you instead just took the money from them afterward? Is that stealing?

What differs aside from the method?

The slogan "Home Taping Is Killing Music" was apparently invented by the BPI (British Phonographic Industry), which is sort of equivalent; industry groups have constantly tried to restrict technology to preserve their profits, every time something new comes along. They seem to have a bit more lobbying clout these days though and are able to get their messages into schools and so on.

Incidentally, I was in a discussion group about "IP" issues a while back containing numerous musicians, A&R people, professors of copyright law and so on, and one of the professors said something which has always stuck with me as being very true: "copyright law is only tolerated because it is not enforced". The ridiculous powers that copyright law in theory gives over people's activities are quite astounding, and have not at all kept up with how people actually want to behave.

As a general point by the way, copyright breach is not theft; add me to that crowd. It may be bad, there are plenty of good reasons why copyright exists (though I would and do argue strongly against the present legal form) but it's not theft any more than it's murder. Using the term as a comparitor just trivialises the issue, because even the most drug-addled teenage downloader can tell the difference between stealing a car and copying some music.

Potentially being the reason why somebody doesn't sell something is not stealing. By that definition, making a competing product on your own is stealing too.

What kind of idiotic statement is THAT! No money being lost? For every illegally copied VHS/CD/DVD or download money the company SHOULD have received is lost to them. The big companies might not be hurt by that, partly because they charge higher prices that comes out of the HONEST folks pockets. However, for the artists who get only a percentage of what their music or movie sells for it CAN mean less food on the table. It's the assclowns who think it is okay to participate in this kind of theft that make ME weep for the state of the human race.

Obviously, you've never worked in retail -- 40% of all "shrinkage" from any business is from EMPLOYEE theft -- and almost anyone will steal anything that isn't nailed down if they think they can get away with it.

I once caught a guy in a 3pc business suit stealing candy -- the man drove a freakin' BENZ, for gods' sake. Once it dawned on him that he was going to be taken away by the cop (who didn't give a flying f*ck if he knew the mayor), he pulled out a platinum AMEX and paid for his chocolate and gummi bears, but he thought he was flat-out ENTITLED. Many people do, I've noticed; why, I'm not sure -- I've never thought it was worth the hassle.

Humans are simply more intelligent chimpanzees, hon -- and chimps are thieves from the get-go. Humans have simply made a few rules about who's allowed to steal what - whether it's candy or elections.

Ah-ah-ah! Not a definition, just an example!

The point is, does it hurt the other person in some way. While I understand you can't avoid hurting people sometimes, it should be avoided when possible!

And ripping a design and making something to compete with the same product just goes so far into that territory as to make it unforgivable. I know of know culture that endorses this kind of behavior, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree with you about the draconian aspects of copywrite law, Ordinal, especially in the US, but the difference between a car and a piece of software is that one can be reproduced exactly and redistributed and the other cannot. That is the reason it is pirated, or really, just plain stolen. People don't think of it the same way they would a physical object, altough the amount of time, talent and money invested in software or some other digitally reproducable work may be far greater than a widget of the assembly line. Not everyone makes (really) non-transeferable goods, but that doesn't decrease it's worth or the fact that it is their unique creation and puts food on their table.

I'm not arguing that texture ripping et al is a good thing - I think it's a bad thing. The point about copyright is that it gives people an incentive to create new things, by helping them extract revenue from their creations for a period before it becomes public domain. I don't see the social good from some arse ripping a new skin by a designer and selling it themselves.

It's just not stealing, though, that's what I'm trying to say, and trying to say it is means you end up with some really stretched metaphors that obscure the real point.

Ok. I can go with that. How about this:

Why do people in SL keep hurting each other?

Why do they take money using scams? Why do they grief people they don't even know? Why do they not use basic manners when speaking to each other? Why do they use extrodinarily technical tools to copy the hard work of others and call it their own? Why do they constantly abuse people?

Why do people in SL keep hurting each other?

Because, they are PEOPLE. I have never been impressed with the human race. Individual people? Some are good. Other are excellent. None can cancel out the dire greed and hate of the average monster, nor overcome the apathy of the average person.


Sorry if this seems depressing, but the fact is, we know WHY. Every single thing we do in life, from birth to the grave, is filtered through a perspective of ME. Even the best of people use that filter. It comes with the hardware.

What we need to ask is how can we universally improve that aspect of hte human race, and if it can be done without destroying us.

<looks up> Woah. I kinda walked away from the subject a bit, huh.

<shrugs> Eh, sorry about that.

Look at it this way, Frost. Considering the amount of hurt we could easily do to each other on any given day, most of us do not. I believe that people come into this world basically good, interact with any child and you know this. Even given free will the fact that we are still around at this point means we still have a chance and we aren't hopeless.

Oh dear, I really wish this was true.

Children are sometimes very sweet and innocent and in many ways do want to please others. But they also show a blatant streak of self-centeredness and can be extremely mean to other children just because they can. It is very much a hodge-podge.



I think there is always hope.

The large generalizations do not help, though. Just like children are both at once, we see both some very bad apples in SL (usually kids who are just passing the time making life awful for others, because they are bored and enjoy feeling powerful) -- and we also see some very wonderful, very giving people. I have seen both.

And sometimes even the best of us can do something thoughtless or selfish, while the worst of us occassionally do something nice.

In general, people really have to think, "If I was so-and-so, and someone did to me what I am thinking I might do them [such as taking a piece of art, copying a texture, griefing someone, and so on], how would I feel about it? Would I want them to do it to me? Would I think it was fair? What would some of my issues be?"

The stealing is not just a failure of kindness, it is also a failure of imagination. People do not envision the effects of their behavior on others (or then do not care).

Yes, the current generation has had the Internet at their beck and call, so many of them do not realize the price that had to be paid for the information and software and music they are getting (or try to take) for free. It is both a blessing and a curse for them. Those who grew up without the freedom of the Internet or those of us who sweat and struggle to produce our own work are naturally more sympathetic to the creator.

It is just a limitation of the day and age, so we would do better educating people and encouraging them to view themselves as part of a community (and thus responsible to everyone else). The criticisms might be valid, sure, but not very helpful at changing the prevailing attitudes.

In the real world, there is a significant shame and sense of personal guilt when you steal.

for most, non sociopathic people, you feel like a worthless human being and have to learn to live with yourself for doing this

but is this so in secondlife? do people steal without feeling any guilt .. do they even feel a sense of pride for hacking the system when they steal textures and resell freebies?

is secondlife creating a culture of thieves?

Sorry, what I meant to say was:Anonymity and subsequent lack of consequence to reputation kill community. This isn't a quirk: all models of cooperation arising from enlightened self-interest (that is, community) require recognizability and recollection of past acts. The homonoids are very good at recognition and recollection, they are also the most social of primates. Sheep appear to be able to recognize each other too, but I don't know why.

The self-centered nature of children is necessary for their own survival, though, they are completely dependent and also need to be socialized to interact with others, and the lack of that kind of child rearing can have ugly effects. When babies cry and scream they don't have a thought about how annoying it may be to anyone else, it's the only way they can communicate their needs. I've never met an evil toddler. I've met spoiled, abused, neurotic children, but that isn't their fault.

As to is SL creating a culture of thieves I say no. Those bastiches were thieves before they got here.

I agree, but the fact that people are pretty powerless to stop them also creates an atmosphere that encourages them to go ahead, what the hell.

If I make a texture and you take a snapshot of it and sell it, I consider it stealing.

Try this...

Go take a picture of your favorite painting in an art museum. If you don't get stopped for that proceed to try to print it and sell it.

Here's the point you don't understand. Taking someone else's labor and doing what you will with it is wrong for several reasons. What causes people like you to just say "it isn't stealing" is you never have to face or confront the people you are dealing with. It's just bits and bytes to you thus it must be "free".

It's someone's labor, but someone like you who doesn't work for a living or who certainly doesn't make any content in SL or RL would not understand.

I'm sure McDonalds would get upset if you sold their condiments packages...