Second Life Forums Archive - Is all this normal for an online game/world

Pallmor Bergman

Registered User

Join date: 1 Mar 2005

Posts: 50

07-31-2006 11:24

Much as I hate to defend LL on this, the problems on SL are NOTHING next to the problems you see on World of Warcraft (or "World of Quecraft" as it's more commonly known these days) and many other MMO's.

Yes, SL has problems. Yes, the "upgrades" come too often and appear under-tested. But compare this with having to wait for an hour in a que EVERY NIGHT, with frequent server crashes, a world that's sharded into hundreds of servers (meaning no playing with friends and being stuck on a server even when that server becomes horrible overloaded, which is almost inevitable), and having to pay $14 a month for the privilege.

Also keep in mind that many of SL's problems stem from the exact thing which makes it so unique, the ability to create your own content and scripts (which no other MMO allows).

-Pall

Ricky Zamboni

Private citizen

Join date: 4 Jun 2004

Posts: 1,080

07-31-2006 11:26

From: Aodhan McDunnough

Etch-a-sketch

has no p2p interactivity
no instant messaging
no color or shading
no animation
no sound
no scripting

I hear all those things (plus Havok 2 and SpeedTree) will be included in Etch-a-sketch v2.0, to be released Real Soon Now.

Aodhan McDunnough

Gearhead

Join date: 29 Mar 2006

Posts: 1,518

07-31-2006 11:59

From: Ricky Zamboni

I hear all those things (plus Havok 2 and SpeedTree) will be included in Etch-a-sketch v2.0, to be released Real Soon Now.

I'm not going to ask about the price.

_____________________

Aodhan's Forge shop at slurl.com/secondlife/Rieul/95/213/107

Cocoanut Cookie

Registered User

Join date: 26 Jan 2006

Posts: 1,741

07-31-2006 12:13

From: Caranda Schreiner

I appreciate that SL may be inherently more buggy due to the wider freedom its gives people to write their own scripts and thus have more downtime, but not having played any of the other major online games (or entered any of the other major worlds if you prefer) I have no basis for comparison.

What really makes me wonder is if it's wise for the Lindens to be rushing out every week new changes without adequate testing. Some of the recent ones - like the snapshot function and the changes to the enter key - feel like changes that could only have been designed by someone who never actually enters SL.

And isn't rushing out new changes constantly without testing, aside from the poor design of some of those changes, just likely to introduce more bugs, more downtime etc etc?

Right. Hopefully they will slow it down some in the future.

coco

_____________________

Luciftias Neurocam

Ecosystem Design

Join date: 13 Oct 2005

Posts: 742

07-31-2006 14:04

From: Hok Wakawaka

It is also apparent that some posters on this thread love nothing more than to argue, looking for arguments where non-exists.

Whatever, chuckles. You're the one throwing around ad hominems.

Aimee Weber

The one on the right

Join date: 30 Jan 2004

Posts: 4,286

07-31-2006 16:24

From: Cindy Claveau

I thought I was über at level forty-seventeen, then I met Aimee and saw that she was level forty-million-teen. There's just no way to catch up now

Aimee = SL's Boss monster.

*rawr*

_____________________

Baccara Rhodes

Social Doyenne

Join date: 10 Jul 2003

Posts: 627

So where does that leave me?

07-31-2006 18:37

From: Aimee Weber

Aimee = SL's Boss monster.

*rawr*

Hey Aimee pussycat? How can I find out my level, oh younger than old lady me Princess Girl?

Maybe I never got above oh I dunno, level 3? (permanent noob?)

_____________________

DEPOZ
Depoz E, W, Celebrations & Specialties !
Define YOUR Space
We have it ALL for you...

cinda Hoodoo

my 2cents worth

Join date: 30 Dec 2004

Posts: 951

07-31-2006 23:21

From: Aodhan McDunnough

SL's update downtime is smack inside my prime time all the time (late evening). You don't hear me complaining. If something gets fixed along the way (e.g. we get the parcel based anti-push option), I am more than happy for the downtime.

Besides I log in to this other game called RL while I'm waiting ... go out, see a movie, surf other stuff, do some programming, blog, go for munchies, nap ... lots of stuff I can do. RL has no downtime (and you'll wish it did).

During last Wednesday's downtime I was watching a movie. When I got home, I handled some email, downloaded the new client, then logged in.

When updates come you know when the downtime will happen. Schedule something else on that time and you won't even notice SL went down.

Ya but i lose 5-7K everytime SL is down half a day, prime US time..and maybe thats not alot to some, but i use what i make to pay land fees...and this is my game, and if im losing money, darn skippy im not happy..was hoping soon like Mr. L to be in the black, this isnt helping...

Aodhan McDunnough

Gearhead

Join date: 29 Mar 2006

Posts: 1,518

07-31-2006 23:26

From: cinda Hoodoo

Ya but i lose 5-7K everytime SL is down half a day, prime US time..and maybe thats not alot to some, but i use what i make to pay land fees...and this is my game, and if im losing money, darn skippy im not happy..was hoping soon like Mr. L to be in the black, this isnt helping...

As I said elsewhere, when one sets up a business one has to factor in the business medium, which in this case is an MMOG-like platform (one of the most unstable classes of software) in an unstable communication medium (the internet).

Those downtime losses should be factored into your business plan. That's really how business plans are made. Big companies do things like that ... we are not exempt from doing the same. Despite their planning they know that they can run into downtime anytime. They don't like it either, but they deal with it.

To not factor things like downtime in is simply not being realistic.

_____________________

Aodhan's Forge shop at slurl.com/secondlife/Rieul/95/213/107

Aimee Weber

The one on the right

Join date: 30 Jan 2004

Posts: 4,286

07-31-2006 23:56

From: Baccara Rhodes

Hey Aimee pussycat? How can I find out my level, oh younger than old lady me Princess Girl?

Maybe I never got above oh I dunno, level 3? (permanent noob?)

No way chickie. You got all the 1337 C0dez!

<up><down><left><left><blow kiss><backflip>

and

POOF! You make it to the secret Philip-in-assless-pants level!

_____________________

Lupus Delacroix

Wyrm Raider

Join date: 3 May 2006

Posts: 695

08-01-2006 06:44

From: Drake Amarula

of course it does, it's cutting edge.

LOL. No it isn't.

We're using a physics engine thats decrepit and ancient, a rendering engine that is almost as bad (Highly inneficcient), and an asset DB which from all appearances hasn't had any REAL maintinence done on it in years.

The interface is absolutely retarded, the GUI isn't even up to standard of those made 5 years ago... need I go on?

What makes this world great is the players create in it. Saying its the only one of its kind doesn't make it "cutting edge". A clawhammer is the only hammer of its type, but I can assure you, it ain't cutting edge tech either.

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

08-01-2006 06:48

From: Aimee Weber

No way chickie. You got all the 1337 C0dez!

<up><down><left><left><blow kiss><backflip>

and

POOF! You make it to the secret Philip-in-assless-pants level!

my SL is broked - I tried , and brought my camera -

And I didnt get to that level. IM still stuck with a box on my head.

=/

VolatileWhimsy Bu

Registered User

Join date: 27 Jun 2006

Posts: 1,492

08-01-2006 06:50

Ahem... uhmm I played wow since it came up till i came here.. Gawd I got so bored.. But anyways.. their is no stability there at all.. there would be preoidic lag to the point you thought you crashed... Every frigging tuesday from early am about 2 or 3 it was down for what do you think? MAINTENANCE AND PATCHES.. ahemmm.. sorry let me continue

Various servers are always crashing for one crappy reason to another.. Hate to tell you this, but compartely second life is alot more stable, but does not have near the numbers of wow...

And yes I played on a pvp server and yes i want some of you to play so i can kill you and camp you and camp you

Ameshin Yossarian

http://www.morbidia.com

Join date: 16 Jan 2004

Posts: 80

08-01-2006 06:53

From: Caranda Schreiner

I don't have a lot of experience with online games/worlds like SL but after a couple of months experience I have to ask:

- is it normal for such games/worlds to be rushing out every week half-baked ill-thought-out buggy changes to the interface that actually make the game/world harder to use and enjoy?

- is this level of downtime while the managers fix said bugs and repair said "features" normal as well?

Maybe I am just unlucky but I do seem to spend a fair proportion of available time unable to log into this extremely addictive game/world...and when I do I seem to spend a lot jumping up and hitting the ceiling when I want to chat.

Personally no, it isnt normal, but sl isnt normal so... what can you do.

SL is complex. Possibly too complex for its own good... There will be errors and bugs that DO need fixing.. its annoying and it sucks but it needs to be done. I don't think anyone else could do better

_____________________

---Update Blog---

http://www.morbidia.com
---Shop---

Search for "Curious Kitties" via the map, search or visit my update blog for urls to each area!

Devlin Gallant

Thought Police

Join date: 18 Jun 2003

Posts: 5,948

08-02-2006 08:28

From: Hok Wakawaka

NO:

What you are experiencing here in SL is not typical of major on-line games.

Fact is that SL is the worst performing major on-line game. No other game comes close to such poor peformance and downtime.

You obviously never played Lineage 2.

_____________________

I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.

Devlin Gallant

Thought Police

Join date: 18 Jun 2003

Posts: 5,948

08-02-2006 08:32

From: Hok Wakawaka

It is also apparent that some posters on this thread love nothing more than to argue, looking for arguments where non-exists.

That would be 'where none exists'.

_____________________

I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.

Devlin Gallant

Thought Police

Join date: 18 Jun 2003

Posts: 5,948

08-02-2006 08:35

From: Hok Wakawaka

Then perhaps I should be more precise:

I have been a hard-core gamer for many years,playing online-games only. I have messed around with many on-line games and I have maxxed leveled several characters in each of the following games:

Diablo
Diablo II
Earth and Beyond
Star Wars Galaxies (non-Jedi)
Everquest II
WOW

Of these games Not One comes anywhere close to the poor game play peformance and downtime of SL

I recall a point where EQ2 was down for 3 days straight.

_____________________

I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.

Kristy Cordeaux

Registered User

Join date: 13 May 2006

Posts: 94

08-02-2006 08:37

Seems to be just a rush to the 'newest' technology etc, whether it works or not doesnt matter (hence the long down times).

Other games have downtimes too, they just seem to be more interested in making things work as they should and enhancing the experience unlike SL.

Here everything has to be cutting edge, and more and more people are probably being forced out because....well who can afford a CRAY supercomputer to keep up?

_____________________

eMachines T5010, but modified to: 2.30Ghz AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core processors, NVIDIA GeForce 6150 (128 MB). 250GB HD.

reddish Tigereye

antisocial recluse

Join date: 12 Nov 2003

Posts: 151

08-02-2006 08:37

they go down all the time because they are WORKING AT MAKING IT BETTER FOR US!!!! try going to a world that doesnt upgrade and you will see how stagnant things get after a short stay. WE SHOULD ALL BE THANKING THEM FOR ALL THESE UPDATES AND NEW STUFF!!!!

JEEZE

_____________________

antisocial recluse

Rivaryn Kitsune

Registered User

Join date: 1 Aug 2006

Posts: 2

08-07-2006 11:01

This discussion makes me laugh.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned EVE online. They currently boast a completely unsharded universe, and about 22000 players online during the weekend with no increase in lag. Scheduled downtime is 1 hour per day. I have rarely, if ever, been dropped unexpectedly from EVE, or gotten 'stuck' (maybe once every 3 months tops).

HOWEVER:

As mentioned before, everything in games like that are optimized by the dev team, tested, and then put out. SL's environment is user created and thus requires a completely different method of handling the virtual world. I personally feel that SL does a pretty good job for the task expected of it. Sure it's not perfect, but I don't see anyone else writing another game like this.

Is all this normal for an online game/world
Pallmor Bergman Registered User Join date: 1 Mar 2005 Posts: 50	07-31-2006 11:24 Much as I hate to defend LL on this, the problems on SL are NOTHING next to the problems you see on World of Warcraft (or "World of Quecraft" as it's more commonly known these days) and many other MMO's. Yes, SL has problems. Yes, the "upgrades" come too often and appear under-tested. But compare this with having to wait for an hour in a que EVERY NIGHT, with frequent server crashes, a world that's sharded into hundreds of servers (meaning no playing with friends and being stuck on a server even when that server becomes horrible overloaded, which is almost inevitable), and having to pay $14 a month for the privilege. Also keep in mind that many of SL's problems stem from the exact thing which makes it so unique, the ability to create your own content and scripts (which no other MMO allows). -Pall
Ricky Zamboni Private citizen Join date: 4 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,080	07-31-2006 11:26 From: Aodhan McDunnough Etch-a-sketch has no p2p interactivity no instant messaging no color or shading no animation no sound no scripting I hear all those things (plus Havok 2 and SpeedTree) will be included in Etch-a-sketch v2.0, to be released Real Soon Now.
Aodhan McDunnough Gearhead Join date: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 1,518	07-31-2006 11:59 From: Ricky Zamboni I hear all those things (plus Havok 2 and SpeedTree) will be included in Etch-a-sketch v2.0, to be released Real Soon Now. I'm not going to ask about the price. _____________________ Aodhan's Forge shop at slurl.com/secondlife/Rieul/95/213/107
Cocoanut Cookie Registered User Join date: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 1,741	07-31-2006 12:13 From: Caranda Schreiner I appreciate that SL may be inherently more buggy due to the wider freedom its gives people to write their own scripts and thus have more downtime, but not having played any of the other major online games (or entered any of the other major worlds if you prefer) I have no basis for comparison. What really makes me wonder is if it's wise for the Lindens to be rushing out every week new changes without adequate testing. Some of the recent ones - like the snapshot function and the changes to the enter key - feel like changes that could only have been designed by someone who never actually enters SL. And isn't rushing out new changes constantly without testing, aside from the poor design of some of those changes, just likely to introduce more bugs, more downtime etc etc? Right. Hopefully they will slow it down some in the future. coco _____________________
Luciftias Neurocam Ecosystem Design Join date: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 742	07-31-2006 14:04 From: Hok Wakawaka It is also apparent that some posters on this thread love nothing more than to argue, looking for arguments where non-exists. Whatever, chuckles. You're the one throwing around ad hominems.
Aimee Weber The one on the right Join date: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 4,286	07-31-2006 16:24 From: Cindy Claveau I thought I was über at level forty-seventeen, then I met Aimee and saw that she was level forty-million-teen. There's just no way to catch up now Aimee = SL's Boss monster. rawr _____________________
Baccara Rhodes Social Doyenne Join date: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 627	So where does that leave me? 07-31-2006 18:37 From: Aimee Weber Aimee = SL's Boss monster. rawr Hey Aimee pussycat? How can I find out my level, oh younger than old lady me Princess Girl? Maybe I never got above oh I dunno, level 3? (permanent noob?) _____________________ DEPOZ Depoz E, W, Celebrations & Specialties ! Define YOUR Space We have it ALL for you...
cinda Hoodoo my 2cents worth Join date: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 951	07-31-2006 23:21 From: Aodhan McDunnough SL's update downtime is smack inside my prime time all the time (late evening). You don't hear me complaining. If something gets fixed along the way (e.g. we get the parcel based anti-push option), I am more than happy for the downtime. Besides I log in to this other game called RL while I'm waiting ... go out, see a movie, surf other stuff, do some programming, blog, go for munchies, nap ... lots of stuff I can do. RL has no downtime (and you'll wish it did). During last Wednesday's downtime I was watching a movie. When I got home, I handled some email, downloaded the new client, then logged in. When updates come you know when the downtime will happen. Schedule something else on that time and you won't even notice SL went down. Ya but i lose 5-7K everytime SL is down half a day, prime US time..and maybe thats not alot to some, but i use what i make to pay land fees...and this is my game, and if im losing money, darn skippy im not happy..was hoping soon like Mr. L to be in the black, this isnt helping...
Aodhan McDunnough Gearhead Join date: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 1,518	07-31-2006 23:26 From: cinda Hoodoo Ya but i lose 5-7K everytime SL is down half a day, prime US time..and maybe thats not alot to some, but i use what i make to pay land fees...and this is my game, and if im losing money, darn skippy im not happy..was hoping soon like Mr. L to be in the black, this isnt helping... As I said elsewhere, when one sets up a business one has to factor in the business medium, which in this case is an MMOG-like platform (one of the most unstable classes of software) in an unstable communication medium (the internet). Those downtime losses should be factored into your business plan. That's really how business plans are made. Big companies do things like that ... we are not exempt from doing the same. Despite their planning they know that they can run into downtime anytime. They don't like it either, but they deal with it. To not factor things like downtime in is simply not being realistic. _____________________ Aodhan's Forge shop at slurl.com/secondlife/Rieul/95/213/107
Aimee Weber The one on the right Join date: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 4,286	07-31-2006 23:56 From: Baccara Rhodes Hey Aimee pussycat? How can I find out my level, oh younger than old lady me Princess Girl? Maybe I never got above oh I dunno, level 3? (permanent noob?) No way chickie. You got all the 1337 C0dez! <up><down><left><left><blow kiss><backflip> and POOF! You make it to the secret Philip-in-assless-pants level! _____________________
Lupus Delacroix Wyrm Raider Join date: 3 May 2006 Posts: 695	08-01-2006 06:44 From: Drake Amarula of course it does, it's cutting edge. LOL. No it isn't. We're using a physics engine thats decrepit and ancient, a rendering engine that is almost as bad (Highly inneficcient), and an asset DB which from all appearances hasn't had any REAL maintinence done on it in years. The interface is absolutely retarded, the GUI isn't even up to standard of those made 5 years ago... need I go on? What makes this world great is the players create in it. Saying its the only one of its kind doesn't make it "cutting edge". A clawhammer is the only hammer of its type, but I can assure you, it ain't cutting edge tech either.
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	08-01-2006 06:48 From: Aimee Weber No way chickie. You got all the 1337 C0dez! <up><down><left><left><blow kiss><backflip> and POOF! You make it to the secret Philip-in-assless-pants level! my SL is broked - I tried , and brought my camera - And I didnt get to that level. IM still stuck with a box on my head. =/
VolatileWhimsy Bu Registered User Join date: 27 Jun 2006 Posts: 1,492	08-01-2006 06:50 Ahem... uhmm I played wow since it came up till i came here.. Gawd I got so bored.. But anyways.. their is no stability there at all.. there would be preoidic lag to the point you thought you crashed... Every frigging tuesday from early am about 2 or 3 it was down for what do you think? MAINTENANCE AND PATCHES.. ahemmm.. sorry let me continue Various servers are always crashing for one crappy reason to another.. Hate to tell you this, but compartely second life is alot more stable, but does not have near the numbers of wow... And yes I played on a pvp server and yes i want some of you to play so i can kill you and camp you and camp you
Ameshin Yossarian http://www.morbidia.com Join date: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 80	08-01-2006 06:53 From: Caranda Schreiner I don't have a lot of experience with online games/worlds like SL but after a couple of months experience I have to ask: - is it normal for such games/worlds to be rushing out every week half-baked ill-thought-out buggy changes to the interface that actually make the game/world harder to use and enjoy? - is this level of downtime while the managers fix said bugs and repair said "features" normal as well? Maybe I am just unlucky but I do seem to spend a fair proportion of available time unable to log into this extremely addictive game/world...and when I do I seem to spend a lot jumping up and hitting the ceiling when I want to chat. Personally no, it isnt normal, but sl isnt normal so... what can you do. SL is complex. Possibly too complex for its own good... There will be errors and bugs that DO need fixing.. its annoying and it sucks but it needs to be done. I don't think anyone else could do better _____________________ ---Update Blog--- http://www.morbidia.com ---Shop--- Search for "Curious Kitties" via the map, search or visit my update blog for urls to each area!
Devlin Gallant Thought Police Join date: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 5,948	08-02-2006 08:28 From: Hok Wakawaka NO: What you are experiencing here in SL is not typical of major on-line games. Fact is that SL is the worst performing major on-line game. No other game comes close to such poor peformance and downtime. You obviously never played Lineage 2. _____________________ I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.
Devlin Gallant Thought Police Join date: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 5,948	08-02-2006 08:32 From: Hok Wakawaka It is also apparent that some posters on this thread love nothing more than to argue, looking for arguments where non-exists. That would be 'where none exists'. _____________________ I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.
Devlin Gallant Thought Police Join date: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 5,948	08-02-2006 08:35 From: Hok Wakawaka Then perhaps I should be more precise: I have been a hard-core gamer for many years,playing online-games only. I have messed around with many on-line games and I have maxxed leveled several characters in each of the following games: Diablo Diablo II Earth and Beyond Star Wars Galaxies (non-Jedi) Everquest II WOW Of these games Not One comes anywhere close to the poor game play peformance and downtime of SL I recall a point where EQ2 was down for 3 days straight. _____________________ I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.
Kristy Cordeaux Registered User Join date: 13 May 2006 Posts: 94	08-02-2006 08:37 Seems to be just a rush to the 'newest' technology etc, whether it works or not doesnt matter (hence the long down times). Other games have downtimes too, they just seem to be more interested in making things work as they should and enhancing the experience unlike SL. Here everything has to be cutting edge, and more and more people are probably being forced out because....well who can afford a CRAY supercomputer to keep up? _____________________ eMachines T5010, but modified to: 2.30Ghz AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core processors, NVIDIA GeForce 6150 (128 MB). 250GB HD.
reddish Tigereye antisocial recluse Join date: 12 Nov 2003 Posts: 151	08-02-2006 08:37 they go down all the time because they are WORKING AT MAKING IT BETTER FOR US!!!! try going to a world that doesnt upgrade and you will see how stagnant things get after a short stay. WE SHOULD ALL BE THANKING THEM FOR ALL THESE UPDATES AND NEW STUFF!!!! JEEZE _____________________ antisocial recluse
Rivaryn Kitsune Registered User Join date: 1 Aug 2006 Posts: 2	08-07-2006 11:01 This discussion makes me laugh. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned EVE online. They currently boast a completely unsharded universe, and about 22000 players online during the weekend with no increase in lag. Scheduled downtime is 1 hour per day. I have rarely, if ever, been dropped unexpectedly from EVE, or gotten 'stuck' (maybe once every 3 months tops). HOWEVER: As mentioned before, everything in games like that are optimized by the dev team, tested, and then put out. SL's environment is user created and thus requires a completely different method of handling the virtual world. I personally feel that SL does a pretty good job for the task expected of it. Sure it's not perfect, but I don't see anyone else writing another game like this.

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Is all this normal for an online game/world