Camping: why?

Ugh, I have 4 computers already but they're in various states of crapness. One is the server that runs my radio station, another that handles the encoding for live work, an ancient Celeron-400 thinkpad and my 'good' pc that I use for most everything else. Got an old router, it's fine. Bought a Safecom 5-port switch at the computer fair on saturday. Must be the flakiest piece of kit i ever bought

Don't worry about feeling odd at luskwood, Lewis. We're all a bit odd ;D

Of course there's not. They're the same thing.

It can. I've had it happen a few times. Get unseated by the stupid thing and sent right into orbit.

I camp when I'm too busy RL side to bother with much else. Otherwise, I'm strolling/flying/tping around looking for something that I have no clue what the name is or who made it. Or, I'm jumping around to a few events at places that have a slightly lower griefing rate, while still having a good number of people. Sometimes, I'll even settle down to a game of Slingo, if I feel really lucky.

As for why it still exists? No clue. I can't wrap my mind around it.

We'll have to disagree on that one, because campers have no place in SL.

Lewis

Loki,

While I can understand you for the most part, this is where it starts breaking down for me.



Okay... let me get this straight. You are expecting me to pay LL for providing content on their own servers? Now tell me HOW this is realistic.

If LL was providing me with more then a chat window, and actually providing me content themselves, then I would have no problem with your arguement. However, they're not. This is not a game where you go in, and hey, they have done everything for you. This is a social Chat with graphics that, for the most part, are provided by yourself.

While there are many people that have provided free goods ('cause let's face it, this game is being presented as a buisness op., and not what it really is, a chat room, and those people know it), this does still hamper creativity. Just building is not an issue. I could go to the Sandbox and build a mansion, sure, using their limited textures, and the free ones that some people are nice to provide. Having creative control, providing content for other players, is. I should not be paying money for what is effectivly done for your and my entertainment.

While I can agree that LL deserves money for the energy and time, and computers that this software runs on, creating an economic situation where I have to pay to skin items so that I can show them to other people is wrong. While SL openly says we encourage creation, the real message becomes "Only if you pay us for your creativity". No artist works this way.

It seems reasonable to me to charge for land for galleries. You want to create a permanent showcase, you should spend money for the rental of the enviroment. If you wanted to sell items to generate more L$, there should be a tax or a licsence fee that is needed for shops. These kinds of things make sense to me.

However, I don't really care about an invisible market that is artifically created. The value of the virtual money means nothing to me. Sharing my creativity does. It is not worth my money to spend here to do so, when I could just as easily create a movie or gallery, and show them off on the web, which would create real buisness op to me, if I get lucky.

Simply put, the current system makes SL less fun for all, and is constructed incorectly. LL needs to reconsider how they are presenting the game, and what their game really is.

Excuse me? They provide the servers, space in the database, the bills to run the servers, the bandwidth... and you wonder how it is realistic to expect people to pay for that?They provide the access to the content... and the bills for that access need to be paid. You use the access, start paying for it.Not paying money for entertainment...? No matter what, there are bills that need to be paid, even when it's "free" entertainment. Somewhere down the line, someone has to pay the bills.

The more people turn around and say "I'm not paying" the more people will turn around and say "I'm not gonna provide the entertainment"But they do work to the "I'll pay you to store the product of my creativity AND to distribute it to other people" idea... which, by the way, is the way SL works.See above...And you would need to pay to show them off on the web, or use a really crappy web-hosting service that would really show them off well...

You disagree with the way SL does it, then state that you could do it the way SL does it and create a real business op...
Yep... does things just like most of the WWW does, the same way you say you would do things anyway... I can see your argument making sense there...

Before you jump on Sarah, you should understand that her take on SL is not in any way out of the norm. And I understand it. And this is why there are free accounts, because people just don't get the idea that they should pay $10 a month for a platform that demands they create and/or buy the only content available. It isn't a game and the fact is that most people who try SL are gamers who expect company created content for their money. So they will balk at the idea of paying "something for nothing". And LL gets that, which is why they provide free accounts to try to lure those who will not pay for access to a platform, without LL providing content or a game or something other than "make it yourself" or "buy it" (spend more money).

In the future I think that only content creators will be paying LL directly, and everyone else will just be a shopper/tinkerer. Not many people want to come into what they percieve as another "game" or "chatroom" and then need to learn scripting and building. The number who will pay for that privilage is even smaller, unless they are making money from this or just want a convenient way to get lindens on a regular basis (aka shoppers). And the Lindex can be used for that.

I will admit that I don't soften the blow, as it were, in my posts... maybe I should, but then the true value of them would be reduced and they'd not be effective.

True though, people usually come here expecting a game... and they face a very rude awakening when they find out that it isn't.

It wasn't that what you posted was that bad, I was just expecting her to get flamed, heh.

I think that LL is in a weird position of wanting to kick up their numbers and at the same time stabilize the inworld economy. So they open the doors but don't hand out money anymore. Which creates a bit of tension for the newbie trying to figure out what SL is all about. Fortunately, there are enough freebies to get by long enough to decide whether SL is worth paying for or at least providing some payment info and buying some lindens. I think with the new system they are trying to create a new "level" of account, one which spends money but doesn't own land, just "verified".

Your arguement is interesting, but there is something your missing.

The cost to actually run these servers is pretty minimal. Disk space doubly so. Outside of paying the original developes a few bucks (For moding what is essential a Quake Building Engine), the costs are cheap. About a 1000 subscribers, and you have paid most of your cost, if not all. Don't need to pay developers for content, the users fulfill that end.

Your arguement about I'm not paying vs. I'm not providing only occures due to forced economics, created by LL. By far, if I build something, and someone likes it, they can take it. I'm not playing this game for a profit. However, apparently, you have been doped into beliving that profit MATTER in a virtual enviroment. Furthermore, you have swallowed the idea that they are providing a service for distribution, which by FAR they are not.

Let's look at another virtual enviroment, shall we? Let's take Magic Online, as an example. The cost to run and develop the game pales in comparision on how much money is generated by people buying cards at RETAIL COSTS for what is a virtual enviroment. It costs nothing to produce a bit saying you have one card. This game creates hand over fist money for what doesn't exist. The players are convinced that the money they are paying can have real world value (You can trade sets for real cards), however this is an illusion. You end up paying a lot more online for a set then you would if you went out and did it yourself. The appeal of MO is that it provides a means to meet other people to play with.

The economics of that game are being transfered here, only it's worse. Instead of providing actual service, they are providing half a service, and expect you to pay for the privledge of giving them content, which they are partners of according to the EULA. So not only am *I* giving up copyright (Whcih, I admit, I do so virtually anyway by being on the net), I am giving them permission to use my copyright in promotions, therefore providing them with avenues to even more money.

Yes, in fact, if I decide to spend the money on a real website (Which costs about ... 20 a year? Compared to the... 180 you are paying for here?), I can have my designs shown, provide contract numbers to sell items, and to provide a showcase for my talents. I can generate real money, with real numbers attached to them. The only reason I do NOT have a proffesional site up right now is that I still am doing research in where my true design talents lie. By far, a real webpage will produce more publicity and revenue then what I could generate inside this little virtual world.

... as a side note, space is cheap. The average size of a graphic upload is about 100k. It would take somewhere in the realms of 100 for most modern hard drives to even notice. It would take about 250,000,000 such images before they were even worried about HD space, and that's assuming they are running with modern day low end/high end from three years ago. It is dirt cheap. Land owners alone could pay for a new one each month.

So, LL has convinced you that you can sell your showcase items, in an enviroment totally under their control, and you are convinced that the vapor that is SL is deserving of money over the content you create, because they have provided a means of doing so?

They provide no software outside of the client. No where have I seen them provide editors for the client. They have provided templates for people who, like me, have spent about half a grand on real software. No where are they providing any material that they themselves have created. Tell me why they aren't paying ME money to provide and enviroment for them? For that is what you are saying. I am going to pay someone money to provide a space for an enviroment that they are going to use, for no other reason then bragging rights.

The economics are a mindscreen. They don't exist. If I paid 20 dollars, one time fee, for the software, with unlimited creation and uploading possibilities, and everyone did, then by far, it could pay for itself. However, I still am not going to pay 20 dollars for an overglorified chatroom that insists that I create content for it, and furthermore, insists that I pay money to them for other people's work. As it stands, I am hesitant to pay one dollar as it stands now. It is effectivly the worse chat enviroment I have ever been in. It pales in comparision to other Mu* and IRC's. The only attraction is that you can build stuff and show it off to people. That is appealing. That can be fun.

The difference is, why bother doing that here when I could very well do it elsewhere? I don't need a 3D enviroment to chat. I don't need a vapor economy to convince me I need to pay them money.

Again, no problem with them selling permenant enviromental space to allow people to keep real showcases inside their machines. That's more then fair. Expecting to pay for the right to customize characters? That's a completely and totally different matter.

Steering back to the original topic, Camping happens because there are several flaws in the enviroment system. The first break is that they have removed the ability to create unique content. The second is that people are actually convinced that the money matters.

Can you prove to me that $L matter?

The other flaw is that you need L$ to buy other people's stuff - but you have no way to actually gain money except by buying it, or living on handouts.

Most games have ways that you can make money by working or completing tasks. I'm quite sure that most people would rather complete some mundane thing that would earn them a few L$ spending money instead of sitting in some stupid chair with other zombies for hours on end.

The whole SL balance is based around money. It's a great waste, if you ask me. Unfortunately Linden Lab seem reluctant to recognise that there are much more important uses for SL than an economy - both to the detriment of the game overall, and to the majority of the playerbase.

Lewis

I'd spend more time answering that little contention, that it's effectively a chat room, as I'm on a pony ride around the north continent...
Well, if you want to aquire content that other people have created, then yes... money does matter...

Both in real life and second life...

Ive only been playing a few days. And I think the game is hard. I am unwilling to invest any real money until I have picked up some decent skills. Camping has been my only way to earn money. I got slightly annoyed because I used 200l$ to try and crack a safe but it was a con. Then later I spent my money on slots. Its very hard to get ahead in 2ndlife.

If anyone has any good ideas on how I can earn some money so I can experiment with things, or generally has any good tips on how to play please contact me.

Stove, the first thing you need to do is stop thinking of it as a game and think of it more as a place where you can build and script things (and then sell them for money), or work for it if you can find a job or simply use your credit card/paypal to buy lindens.

It won't cost you anything to build and experiment with scripting. You can get free textures (try the Gnubie store) as well.

The real skills in SL are building and scripting. Once you have those you can make and sell things. Do a search in Find under "Places" for the Ivory Tower of Primitives. You can do an interactive tutorial there for building skills. Go to find, click the "Events" tab and choose "Education" from the "Category" drop down menu then hit "Search". You will see classes listed there, especially Teazer Isle, in building and scripting for free. Go to sandboxes and practice. Go to the New Citizens Plaza, they also have classes to help you, a job kiosk and lots of info. Also try the Shelter for help.

There are plenty of things you can do for fun that are free, as well, like clubs and events, inworld games or just exploring and meeting people. Do a search in Find for Groups that share your interests.

*sigh* This is the problem with SL, though. They really don't make it clear that SL isn't a "game" in the normal sense because they know that their main audience are gamers. Then people get here and are confused and frustrated by the inability to get anywhere without spending money, and no clear way to earn it.

It's a shame because I think SL would rock as a traditional MMO, or at least with some aspects of it, such as a way to easily make some Lindens and more control over the economy. But they want to be the 3d web, and they aren't anywhere near this. So people come and just wind up confused and lost.

Tringo is fun! I played for the first time yesterday, and learned the rules by a couple of turns into the first game. There is no fee to play (not in the place I was, anyway) and the winnings can be pretty good for a new player. The pot last night was about 10% of my entire fortune (I have purchased L$ and have also played a couple of shows where I have been tipped). Even if you don't win, it's fun playing the game and communicating with the others there and while you play you might learn some new things and meet some people willing to help you out with the skills that you wish to learn. The chat is always just scrolling by like mad - whoever said that Tringo is anti-social is on crack. There is also Slingo, but I have not played this one so can't help you out there. Stay away from the slots - house always wins, and there are apparently some cheaters out there.

That's one of SL's biggest failings - the open endedness, with no actual path of any description.

You're right - most people will end up just lost and confused here, and don't come back. Linden Lab need to realise that not everyone has the skill to build or script, and many of those like me who do don't get any sales because what we offer is not sex related.

The advertising is all wrong. Making money should be a bonus for being here and all that SL offers - not the primary thrust of the advertising.

The huge difference betwen signups and actual daily active accounts should give LL a clue that they're doing something wrong - yet they seem too tied up in this "3D web" rubbish to understand it.

Lewis

Not IMO. "Your world. Your imagination." I simply LOVE the fact that its open ended. I DONT want a goal or have to level. I love making almost anything I want. Or taking it easy and just chatting.

I think the people that have problems with SL sometimes are those that are so used to being spoonfed their entertainment and have no imagination of their own. And if they leave then great. Because I want imaginative and creative people around me. Or just someone that likes to chat and hang out. No pressure. No goals. But if you're bored it's because you arnt making SL fun. And if you are bored take a break, there's no penalty.

You don't really have to pay to create stuff here. That is the way it is in There, where you have to pay to have your stuff considered for being offered for purchase by others.

I hate that. I much prefer the way it is here.

coco

Or maybe its because some people in game find it great to make your life a misery in one way or another?

And others who are incapable of separating forum and game?

Or because Linden Lab refuse to follow their own rules and policies, and enforce them when other players are clearly out of order?

... amongst many other reasons.

Many things are just beyond an individual's control, and however hard you try, sometimes you just get to the "screw it all" point and log out, because it's not worth trying to continue to build when you are being constantly harrassed?

Oh, you forgot, it's "Your world, your imagination, our rules when we can be bothered to enforce them, depending on who you are".

Lewis

...their place is at the top of SL's most popular places list.

This is the part I really don't undertstand, or maybe I do and it's just a numbers game:

1) Buy some land, put out camping chairs / dance chairs.
2) People start showing up in droves, and bleeding a little money off you.
3) Find shows a lot of traffic.

Okay, now I understand that if you own a shop, and people are searching for "shoes" and your shop that sells shoes is at the top of the list, you will make more sales and earn more money.

However, if you run a camping chair plot, all you do is attract more people who in turn camp and take more money from you. What's the drive to want to do this, anyway?

I figure it's either A) people need a goal and the one with the most traffic is a "winner" (thereby making SL a real game called "The Popularity Contest", or B) the camp chair plot is also a casino, and people just end up giving you back all the $L they made anyhow.

If I go anywhere that appears to be popular and find it's full of campers, I find somewhere else to go because it's fake.

There has to be a better way to calculate traffic than simply bodies on a parcel. Maybe the whole 'popular places' thing should be killed off altogether because it's fairly obvious to even the most casual user that the majority of the places on the list are stuffed full of campers or dance pads, and are thus not a true reflection of the quality of the venue. It may simply be a badly textured box, or laggy as hell, and be comparitively crap when you look at some of the imagination and effort put into some of the fantastic builds that are dotted about but hardly get any traffic.

I'd rather have 100 traffic of real people enjoying what I have, than 10,000 traffic simply provided by zombies who are only there because I'm paying them to. Popularity should be measured by quality, not the amount of disposable income you have to throw at them.

Lewis

The main reason, im here is that after reading a magazine about SL. I thought it might be a great oppurtunity to open an virtual store that links to real life products. Eg a clothes store, you can try the clothes on first in game, then click buy and have the mailed to you irl. Thats the direction I wanted to go.

But Im starting to think this world cannot offer a good platform for this. Everything is too fragmented and it is very hard to new commers to find places.

I would want a newbie to login, see my billboard I have placed near the start and be warped to the shop. It would also help if all shops where close together in a mall, like in real life.

From my first perspective of the game.
Its takes a little while to understand how the world works, which is very off putting to new playes.
Everywhere is full of pornographic places, or these places are where most people are.
Items that you buy in game have no real benifit, Yes you can buy some good mech armour and guns but there are limited places if any you can use it. Its just to make your advartar look good.

But I have seen some good examples of whats possible.
There was a game that looked like robot wars, very fun to play, but there didnt seem to be many people playing.
If this was situated in a newbie area, it would attract more players to stay.

I still offer an alternative to camping chairs:
http://www.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=82022

I'll give those away for free to everybody who's not older than 1 month.

oooh, how about 1 day members? what does that do anyways? lol