it is about time for developer certification.

I'm not here to provide you with answers, but rather to point out the options being presented are just as problematic as the situation they are trying to fix.


Abuse reports, for one. IP right enforcement requests for another. Now, maybe the system is lacking and needs more beef (I can agree with that 100%), but I can not see the answer to griefing/stealing being to cut off people's ability to create content.



Well, my primary solution was tossed out the window on 6/6. IMO LL should go back to tying account creation to a credit card. It's not foolproof, but its more verfication than we have right now.

The idea in the OP was an attempt to kill two birds with one stone (content theft and griefers). The solution as presented solves neither. It only causes further problems (segregating people into creators and consumers).

-Ghoti

Yeah, that's pretty bad.
I wasn't aware this was possible though.
How is this possible?
I understand how textures get ripped.
I don't understand how if someone rez's something then they can steal it, so I don't believe this can happen at this time.
When you toss fear comments out without explaination it makes it seem just like fear mongering.
I don't think that is what you are doing and I respect the creations you have inworld but I guess I don't have the experience to understand how being able to rez something opens the door to stealing it.

Goodness. If people can dupe your creations in 5 seconds flat, maybe you need to make something more complex than an unmodified block prim linked to another unmodified block prim?

I could spell out to you, step by step, how to make some of my builds and still it would take you some time to recreate them, especially if you wanted an exact copy (I measure to an absolutely anal degree).

Conversely, a sufficiently skilled and motivated builder can more or less dupe ANYthing, with or without mod rights, simply by studying it carefully and copying the design. I don't see any reason to be that worried about it, though. "Me too" creations happen even in the real world, you know, and to actually do that, assuming a build of some complexity, takes at least some skill and time.

I'm with Ghoti. The only real gain here would be stifling creativity and discouraging new content creators.

I'm not going to spoon feed every person that that reads this post. The information is in the forums if you want to find it. It's been here for months. I have a vested interest in knowing what kind of hacks I'm up against (at least with texture theft), so I'm not here to spead unfounded rumors or false information. I will say that none of the hacks produce perfect results without work, especially with duplicating 3D content, but it can be done. Textures are obviously much simpler to work with.

yeah. I can appreciate not wanting to spoon feed everyone.

Maybe if you don't feel backing up with some facts on what you are talking about then you should keep your mouth shut all together, or it comes across like the big "OH NO SOMETHING BAAAAD, IT'S SOMETHING REALLY BADDDDD" things. Is it so hard to point to another thread with the information you are talking about? I don't know what to search on for it.

If you rez an object, even one you created, anyone can easily take over your account, and from there your bank account as well, and then even assume your entire RL identity. In five seconds flat.

It's true!

ORANGE ALERT!!!

Join Date: Jun 2006

If this is correct, then no wonder you have to ask. Did the word "stealing" come to mind?

Is there somehow a way that my join date could be incorrect?

Keyword "stealing" returns 200+ results.

All this back and forth just post the link to the thread that contains the information? and if you don't feel comfortable with doing that, would you drop and IM on me inworld so I can see what you are talking about?

Certification In Real Life:

* A Professional Plumber used PVC to put together a Restaurant's Plumbing System. Illegal, and Not Good, but since it was a LICENSED PROFESSIONAL PLUMBER, nothing ever came of it.

* A Certified, Professional Data Backup Company regularly parks it's trucks, all doors open and all backup medial readily accessible, in front of BANKS. Hello? Thousands of Bank Records? Thousands of Opportunities for Identity Theft? All in nice neat little packages just sitting and waiting in the back of a truck?

* A SysOp, who was College Trained and Industry Certified, who did not even know what the DOS Prompt Command did, and who called in the "Specialists" whenver a PC under his care so much as hiccupped because he did not know how to deal with it.


Not Certified:

I build PC's. I can follow what the PC is doing and I'm really pretty good at finding and fixing problems. I'm also pretty good with software. Computer operations is my thing. I love doing data backup and other routine tasks. So why am I not doing that work now?

Someone decided I must have certification to do it!


Certification, especially if it's very costly, will deter content creators.

What's more, we can always follow the THERE.COM model, which is, all content must be approved by Linden Labs. That will, I am absolutely certain, eliminate all the griefer tools.

Furthermore, THERE.COM charges a fee for this evaluation. And if they don't like you or your product, and it's not approved, you lose at least part of this fee.

Linden Labs should require builder certification and product approval. Definitely. Then all of us who have more sense than money won't be able to afford to get in on the market, and all you with more money than sense can continue to spit out bad products.

As a good business model founded in reality, I LOVE IT!

No thanks.

Damn straight! So everyone stop fearing Osama... oh wait, we weren't talking about terrorism were we?

Preach it brother.

Why do people hate true freedom so much? Freedom isn't just all smiles and hugs - with it comes the freedom to fail just as much as the freedom to succeed. But you're free to TRY.

I hate how people always want to just eat out of one end of the freedom barrell.

Linden Lab does not have the kind of manpower needed for this kind of system.

Second Life residents churn out new designs, textures, and scripts at a rate that would make most tech industries (not just companies) shrink in fear. Our times-to-market measured usually in days are next to nonexistent when compared to RL times-to-market which is measured in months!

Furthermore we are not saddled with manufacturing design or costs. Once it's made, it can be replicated instantly with a single mouse action.

With that rate of new item production, no way will a certification staff be able to keep up.

False.

Expect content creation to die.

I was one of those who by your standards (payment) would not have gotten certification. That would mean that I would not be able to use a lot of functions. That would mean that I could not do preliminary testing on things I wanted to build (vehicles and movement attachments for example).

I would have left SL and never looked back.

I now have my little home and workshop and I have an excellent product soon to go on the market.

For that you can thank Linden Lab for allowing me use of those functions when I was not yet a paying resident.

I am not alone, and I am not an extreme rarity.

Now I dare you to tell me in the face that content creation will not suffer much.

A lot of the best future content creators reside in the unverified section of the population. We need to encourage them, not stifle that creativity. If they create masterpieces that enter the market while they remain Basic, WE are the richer for it since we get to enjoy their work. LL benefits indirectly because such masterpieces will increase patronage by other people (not necessarily that creator). They can continue to enrich the environment even while basic and I'm not about to stop them.

So go ahead and shun the dung pile that has 100 carat diamonds hiding within. I won't.

I understand the motive behind this thread, and I agree that there are a lot of improvements that need to be made. As to how that can be accomplished I dont know, it would be impossible to keep out all griefers and thieves. This would just make it harder on the people who are interested in creating content, not stealing from others. People who steal can always find another way to get around whatever rules are in place.

That being said, new artists would be completely blocked from content creation, and would probably not invest in something they couldnt try out firsthand. Stifling creation does not seem very beneficial for consumers, it might help content creators that have been there for a long time and do not wish to have more competition though. They could afford the certification after all and have already had their time to experiment and learn without restrictions.

Just my 2 cents

@Aleri

Griefers

I'd addressed the issue of griefers several times already on other threads. The key to eliminating griefers is not by screening. The key is for LL to put in features that will control the use and abuse of the so-called "griefer functions."

All they have to do is put in filters to ferret out who can and can't be affected by push. For the individual, a switch option that will allow/disallow push when on safe land. For landowners the switch that will allow/disallow push from outside the parcel (so it's said by LL that this feature is coming).

Theft

On the matter of theft there isn't really anything we can do to stop it outright. Piracy is a serious real-world issue and it's no different in SL. It's caused by the mere fact that the artwork gets transmitted in a recordable and replicable format.

There is no existing technology anywhere that will stop texture theft. All we are able to do is report or file DMCA claims that LL can act upon. LL cannot (and should not) promise anything beyond that because protection is something that no one, not even Microsoft, can promise.


The only thing I am chiding Linden Lab about is not completing the anti-griefer tool set BEFORE opening registration.

As much as I agree with the sentiment behind the OP's idea, I'm dead-set against the actually 'solution' of certification. It boils down to little more than the implementation of 'presumed guilty until proven innocent." It makes the assumption that all developers are going to committ copyright infringement as the rule, rather than treating it as the exception.

I dont subscribe to that model. Punish the guilty, not the innocent.


- Newfie

I see it as stifling griefers.

Gods, people, anyone who's in SL to start with has to be able to afford a broadband connection and a decent computer. Those who don't want to bother paying are either freeloaders, griefers, gamblers, or cybersex-happy tourists who don't create anything, anyway.

Merlyn, that's where I began, and I'm no freeloader, griefer, gambler, or cybersex-happy tourist ... and I do create. Ask Flapjack Spatula. Though I was already premium at the time I did the job for him, I was a very new premium member whose learning happened mostly while I was still basic.

USD 10 is not small change. Maybe for you it is, but for many people around the world it is not. It was enough to keep me from checking out SL for several years. I'm not one who wants to spend $10 on something so different that I can't tell if I'm going to keep it.

<3 Merlyn

Reading the enlightended quips you provide is so much a pleasure. Keep up the good work.

Maybe PERMISSION_DEBIT is a bad idea. Think about it: do you think slot machines in casinos have a pipe that chugs money right from the bank to the jackpot? Hell no! You /pre-pay/ a certain amount. If it runs out of money, it shuts down rather than emptying your bank account.

This could be implemented in a couple of ways:

1. You could have a separate 'account' for each script that requests PERMISSION_DEBIT. You top the account up whenever you want. This is the same as having a pot of money in the machine.
   
2. You grant the script permission to access a certain amount over a certain time, for example L$1000 per day. This is how withdrawing money from cash machines (ATMs) and Paypal work. If the script wants more, it would have to again request your permission to go over this limit.
   

I think certification is a horrible idea

"Those who would surrender freedom for security deserve neither." ~ Ben Franklin



The $$ cost of licensing is only the smallest part of my concern. I can easily afford a reasonable licensing fee. No, what I am opposed to here is the removal of creative freedom.



Pretty broad generalizations. But really, look at that list again. Take away creative freedom and those people on your list are exactly who will be left in SL.

-Ghoti

Not necessarily. Back in the old days, one of the most successful builders was a homeless woman who accessed SL through a computer in her local library.

Some of us can barely afford our Internet connections and no, not a decent computer, but just enough computer to run SL. We don't have extra money in our budgets to shell out for land or paying accounts or even really anything that costs extra monthly fees.

So speaking for myself and on behalf of other people who aren't all that solvent, I humbly apologize for being somewhat poor.

(I say somewhat poor because I won't insult the truly, utterly destitute by suggesting I'm one of them. For obvious reasons, those people don't post on Internet forums.)

Hell, everyone knows that griefers build and script the stuff they use.

I think we should make the scripting wiki subscriber-only.

Oh, hold on a moment, I think I've done this in another thread.