If you like/want good events, why do you not support them?

Oh yeah baby, watch me crusade.

But really. I hear a lot of whining about how the events are crap and how people would like them to be better, but since 90% of them are crap they just don't bother.

The question is not why were camping chairs so bloody popular. The question is, why did you, the person who wishes that events were better but doesn't go to the good events you say you want, let those chairs become so popular.

I posit that it is not the fault of the people who camp in those chairs that the chairs became popular and DI is going away.

I posit that it is not the fault of the club owners that installed those chairs.

I posit that it is not the fault of the creators of those chairs.

I posit that it IS the fault of every single one of you who has ever said or posted "well I never check the events list anymore becuase its too full of crap", or, "well I rarely go to events because so many are crap".

Every time you say that or think that or find out that there was an event you may have liked but didn't go to because you keep yourself willfully ignorant of which events are when, you supported those camping chairs. Every time an event that you think is worthy didn't fill the sim, you supported those camping chairs.

Had you supported the events you feel are worthwhile -- that 10% that is not crap -- then right now there would be more people producing those events. And those producers would have been getting DI instead of the camping chair folks. But you failed to do that. You said it wasn't your problem. You said it was too much trouble to sift through the events list. I can understand -- those filters are a real bitch to use. /sarcasm off. But nonetheless, you contributed.

The overhead for starting a good events venue is VASTLY more expensive than for starting a content shop. Yet, many of you have failed to support those places you would actually enjoy -- falling back on one of many things that are really just excuses.

So now comes the time for you to put up or shut up. Are you going to support these things in the future? Or will you consign us to a world of *.*ingo and gambling and sex sex sex. Because, news flash, these things will sell. People already pay to play *.*ingo in contributions to the pot. They'll either pay a small fee in addition or the house will take a portion of the pot -- either way, those venues are safe. The gambling houses will take a portion of the pot. So those venues are safe. And I think we all know that people will pay for sex. They do in real life, they will in second life.

Will you pay for live music? Will you pay to go to a dance that doesn't offer any prizes? Will you pay to go to a trivia contest? Will you pay a membership fee for a venue that provides all this stuff? Time to put your money where your mouth is and pony up. Else, quit yer bitching. Because if you don't support the alternative then by your inaction you support that which you claim to despise.

Uh, excuse me. I said the events list contains more non-events than events (I don't think I ever said "crap", but annoying and unusable, probably) but I have done something about it... as have the many people who post their events to our separate list: http://SLBoutique.com/events/ Lots of people are really annoyed with the "events" list, and a bunch are doing things other than complaining. Quite a few business owners are offering to sponsor events that aren't merely spamming for traffic.

People *are* working positively to change things. The Events list in world is just a spam portal. LL doesn't like non-scalable systems (like an events list that needs moderating), so my guess is it will go the way of other non-scalable systems that have been in LL in the past: payments for hosting events and event announcements, and others.

In addition, I'd like to see SL head the way of the browser, where you get to pick your "home page" and your "search site". Once Firefox is integrated, this will be quite possible. Wouldn't you like to put the necessary data streams in the hand of the users and allow us to design our own "find" menu, and define our "events calendar URL", "shopping URL", "search URL", and "home URL" in preferences somewhere?

SL is to the point where, in my opinion, they should have an events list. What they SHOULD do is provide residents with the necessary tools to run their own event LISTS; more choice == freedom.

Regards,

-Flip

Good questions, Vivianne!

Event hosts can check out Foundation for Rich Content for funding options:
/110/ab/58103/1.html

Exactly how many Event discussion threads do we need...

I'm on a crusade or hadn't you noticed?

They should also check out the Dreamland Events Grant (link in my sig). There ARE promoters and financiers out there who put a premium on great events.

In the short time I've been in SL I've been pretty disappointed by 'events'. I came in search of a community doing cool stuff and found some inaccessible cliques and an events list full of *ingo and nekkid contests. Live music? Trivia contest? I'd love to come but I ain't never seem em! (Apart from many a happy hour at the Shelter and a very late night game once - I'm in the UK so 6pm game time is 2am for me.)

Is it my fault I never found these things? Or the organisers for not cutting through the noise and advertising adequately?

As others have posted, there are people trying to change things (and good luck to them - SLBoutique's listings and the FFRC are very positive developments). But I've yet to hear of a business that grew through attacking it's customer base as a bunch of whiners who need to put up or shut up!

I go to interesting events and hold creative events of my own. I think part of why it can be hard to get a lot of people at my events is that it's hard for people to wade through the events calendar, but there's another reason.

I think interesting events probably are more focussed - that is, they don't have a broad but shallow appeal (sit and get paid) but appeal to only a slice of the community. I think most quality events will never garner the huge numbers because they appeal to a small percentage of the resident population, but that's all right.

That's what we want - many events, but events to appeal to many different tastes, both broad and narrowly focussed.

I kind of appreciate Vivianne's walking away from her earlier thread instead of trying to have a discussion with people who had nothing to contribute but chimed in nonetheless. "Events are crap and I ain't paying for nothing" did not answer her query.

I agree with Osprey, and would add this observation:

I have never attended an event that wasn't announced in the Events List under "find".

At least, I can't think of one. (Aside from meetings of group members, which is different.)

However, I have attended many events - of many different types - that I found during my almost daily perusal of the events list.

I do not want to have to peruse instead 17 different events lists on 17 different websites filtered by 17 different people as to their ideas of what events I should be able to choose from.

I want one central events list, in the game, with categories to make perusal easier, and with the events listed in order of time of day, so that I can check around those times when I am on.

Which just happens to be - what we have now.

coco

Thank you Margaret! But its more than just that thread. Hell even Hiro in Perse's thread about low lag went off about how most events are crap and he doesn't even bother anymore. I mean, if this is the prevailing attitude, if this is what many of you think about ALL events, then what chance do we have of maintaining events 6 months down the road when REALLY all that is left, all that is self-maintaining, are the *.*ingos, the gambling and the sex? The lack of DI isn't going to make things better immediately -- its going to make them worse.

You think camping chairs were bad? You think the people who offered chairs will stop because the chairs are gone? They'll just come up with a more despicable way to make their cash. And they'll succeed too because they've already proven that their focus is on making money. That leaves those of us with a focus on events struggling just to survive and we CANNOT do it without the support of the population. The stuff the spa does is not self-sustaining. Neither is the stuff at the shelter and Gabe, with all due respect to you and the good work of the foundation, you cannot support all the 'other' venues. Besides, I'm not eligible since Perse is on the board.

Patroklus, I'm not telling my consumer base to put up or shut up. Those people I'm talking to are not my consumer base because they already don't come to events. They just whine about how events suck. Or that there aren't any in their time zone. Sorry but its true and you proved the point in this thread alone. I know there are good events in your time zone because many is the time I've looked at the events list and saw things I would have loved to have gone to -- but I was at work. And actually, the spa experimented with a few things done specifically for the European time zone and we dropped them because no one showed. So I know for a fact that your complaint is not valid.

If people truly want to see a change in the events offered, then they'll need to work at it and its not just the event producers who need to work at it. Everyone has to be in on this or its not going to work. If, however, you like camping chairs or whatever lame assed thing someone will think of next to make oogobs of money, then do nothing and those things will almost certainly succeed.

I wondered if it might help to have the Foundation for Rich Content help in advertising good events - that is, maybe have a category FFRC or just use that as a search word to find events that are FFRC certified or something.

I haven't done anything with them, yet, but I want to - I'm just a general knucklehead so I'm not sure exactly WHAT they are doing besides offering money. I'd just like to see them offering a filtration system so it's easier to find the good stuff.

Your original post cited 9 months indicating to me that you weren't just whining about the way thing are but seeking advice in the development of a long term plan. We need more people who are in it for the long haul in a place overwhelmingly frequented by short termers.

Vivianne, I clearly came in on the end of this row but you're thread was so provocative I had to respond

But on the point I made earlier - is the problem my failure to find/support events or the failure of event organisers to make people aware?

Here is my average night in SL as an illustration:
1. Log on, open up find and Events
2. Search for a discussion, decide the finer points of bdsm are not for me
3. Search on nightlife, decide that sexy av contests are not for me
4. Search on pageants (you never know!) and find nothing or more sexclub spam
5. Search on arts/culture (hope springs eternal) and find no listings
6. For extra credit go to charities and miscellaneous, rinse, repeat

OK. *Occasionally* I find a Thinkers event, FFRC discussion or go to a club anyway. But I usually find I end up at the Welcome Area (because that's where lots of people are) or at the Shelter (because that's where some friendly people are).

So.. my fault for not being in the know? Or the fault of event promoters for not reaching me?

I know that some people on the forum can be negative for the sake of it (I know, heaven forfend!) and you're railing against their whining, but a lot of us *do* try to find interesting events to attend and are continually disappointed.

If it werent for the recent location locking I'd be posting 'guerilla events', like just under the wire for notices, in places I'm not authorized to post for, and start some @#%!.

But... although I have access to the infohubs, clubs I don't remember belonging to, and places I don't recall ever visiting, I wouldn't want to post there. So....

I'll either have people join a group (bah) or I'll start putting so extra load on my messageboard

Guerilla Events, at places that don't expect traffic. Not for profit, traffic, but for fun.

In it for the long haul yes. Perse and I have sat down with consultants and we are trying to figure out how to survive. Our choices were:

1. throw in the towel and just quit
   
2. continue to fund events via Perse's own pocket because she's altruistic and whatnot
   
3. figure a way to survive in the new area of no DI
   

We chose number 3. Perse isnt' altruistic enough to want to spend 200 real life dollars a month providing entertainment for the masses and I'm just a bitch -- I won't even spend 10. So yeah, number 3 it is.

However, this is going to cost us about 200K L and yeah, we'll have to fund it out of our own pocket for a while. Like 6-9 months. Why? Because that's how long its going to take for non *.*ingo, non-gambling and non-sex events to dry up. People will either marry events to shopping -- wherein events are held in shopping areas in the hope that this will spur shopping which will fund the events and so on and so forth OR venues will have to charge for event and/or build content. Those event venues that are actually entire sims -- like the Spa, will be the hardest hit.

Herein we find the reason for my crusade which began today because today is when I had the idea to begin a crusade. If I can get a sizeable amount of to agree that certain events are worth paying for, then maybe that 6-9 month time frame will be lessened. If I can get people to see that there is value in the type of events that places like the Spa produces, then maybe we have a chance. Hell if I can get people to pay just to shut me up its worth the crusade.

But this is the problem we are facing and I don't think many people have considered the problem that venues like the spa are going to have without DI. I'm not bitching about DI or the lack thereof. If what Perse and I are planning works, it will be SO worth it and better for us and better for SL. But it may not work. And it may not work because of people like that guy who posted that he wouldn't pay one dime for entertainment over what he already gives LL.

I've received a lot of compliments about the work I do at the Spa and the events we've put on. We've had good attendance. But now, without the support of the community and I am talking about paying for something you are used to getting for free, we are not going to be able to continue and neither is anyone else -- with the exception of a few. So in order to facilitate that, you guys get to hear me harp on the value of events for the next nine months or until we get the new model working

Long range planning is the shiznit eh? ::

Yes it's all my fault. I went to show & tells, primtionary, bingo, tringo, classes and such until they started being hosted in crowded sim by blindingly blinging dance animated hosts. It all stopped being useful at that point because I couldn't see, much less move.

Vivianne you're free to call me a whiner if you like. My impression of the event list and the thing listed on it were formed by experience and will not change until someone convinces me to try again. More power to you.

One thing that might convince me is a cover charge. Knowing that only people willing to pay for an event will be there, and knowing that the people hosting the event feel obligated to provide something useful, could sway me to not only attend, but invite others as well. We'll see how it goes.

As far as the list is concerned, Coco, I think LL incapable of maintaining a such a feature. The effective wave of the future will be groups that publish events with the guarantee that they attend and endorse them. You won't have to follow dozens, just the ones you appreciate. Awakening Avatars was doing this back when the Linden list was being monitored. I wonder if they're still around.

Viv, I would gladly pay up to L$100 for events at the spa. I'd pay more if I thought I'd have the money. I did go on a little shopping spree over there the other day. You need more stuff for guys. If I could rent out a booth or something I'd gladly give you a commision.

Vivianne, part of the problem is that LL stopped supporting events a while back. They used to offer monetary incentives for hosting events that met certain criteria, and even offered money to give out as prizes. This practice set the tone for events in SL; attendees not only expected to attend events for free, but they also grew to expect prizes and other monetary rewards.

LL pulled the rug out from under event hosts by removing the majority of their event support and ceding the events list to the porn-ingo wolves. It became very difficult to run real events unless you were willing to consistently lose money.

Some groups have stepped in to offer monetary support for events, entities such as the FFRC on the non-profit end, and anshechung.com on the commercial end. If I remember correctly there have even been individuals such as Enabran Templar who have offered to to support events. Still, good events are few and far between.

In the meantime, the events list has become hopelessly borked, and LL's feet should really be held to the fire on this issue. It's their system, and it's consistently jam-packed with TOS violating non-events and garbage, but the Lindens have more or less abandoned responsibility for it entirely. They should either fix it, or kill it and make room for a citizen-created alternative.

Well. If anyone cares to back me up. I'll start setting up non-paying events at infohubs, exploring the grid, and trampling people's roses. If I fill up a sim where somoene's hosting another damn slingo event, and no one is playing or giving dwell, would that be considered a Denial of Service?

Actually. Nevermind. I don't want to give people ideas.

Ever since LL stopped supporting events. The quality of events have slid into the sewer.
There used to be many classes, triva events etc. Events that required you to use your
brain. Now it's camping chairs and watching cartoon characters dance on a screen.
The question asked " If you like/want good events, why do you not support them?"
In the past there were good events to support. I know many folks including myself who supported them with their time. money and effort. Now those good events are very rare.
The people who created those events seem to have gone the same way.
It would be wrong to put the total blame on the people who host the camping chairs and slingo games, part of the blame resides on the residents of Second Life. They have made it plain they want to be paid for showing up. So what are we to do about it?

I do not believe it is wrong to say, we can do better than this.


As far as paying to attend events. Give me something that stimulates my mind and that I can't do by myself or for myself. Pay to money to hear muisc. I doubt it. pay for a good scripting class? Oh yes sign me up now.

Rox

Well, we'll see. As I have said before, I can read and scan fast and my eyes don't bleed because I have looked at the titles of events I'm not interested in.

You would like to be convinced of the value of an events list, or convinced of the need to look at it. Well, I could tell you the latest event I attended - it was a Victorian Tea Party at William Withnail's. I found that on the events. It was different! You didn't find it, because you refuse to look at the events. So, have I convinced you that it is worthwhile to look at the events list? Cause that's all I have in the way of a convincing argument - the fact that I look at it, and select things to go to, and go to them, and have fun at them.

Works for me.

Now this business of having it all be on separate websites wouldn't work nearly as well for me. I can't access things on the web while I am in the game. And they would be in sixteen different places. This way, it's right here, all in one place, I can read them, and I can go to them.

Now here's the thing: Nothing is stopping those other 16 websites from publishing their own events list, is there? So why would someone have to remove MY events list, right in the game, so that I would have to go bopping around when not logged into the game to try to figure out what might be going on?

Why take away something that is very useful to me? Those who don't bother with it anymore because they think it is all crap, already don't look at it, so it shouldn't matter to them at all. My question is, why would they need to stop me from looking at it? So I would be forced to go look at their own sites?

As for this idea of getting a group of residents to decide for everybody else what is an event and a non-event, that is the worst idea I've heard in ages.

As for the fact that the Lindens don't police the events list at all, well, what do they police? Almost nothing. So why should this be any different?

They are maintaining it, simply by having it. The same way they maintain everything else.

coco

You raise an excellent point. If one refuses to look, one will surely /never/ find -- to paraphrase ... there are none so blind as those that will not see. I work with people all day who refuse to /look/ and spend their time complaining about how "this is broken" or "I can never find that" or "that sucks, and I refuse to use it" .... its unfortunate but true.

My guess is, all the success stories in the world won't convince anyone to look at something they have already made up their mind is pointless and worthless.

Bloody Hell, I certainly didn't mean to say that LL should remove the current events list from the interface. Well wait, I didn't say that. You just implied that I did. Ha ha ha it's like when I used to not suggest eliminating telehubs but people would put those words in my mouth and claim that I said them. Must be destiny.

Y'all are quite right. There are plenty of things for a two-year-old avatar to do inworld without having to reference the built-in events list. It's not like I'm sitting at home bored out of my skull just because I don't use that particular reference tool. Trying to convince me to use it is like me trying to convince you to script advance communication tools because it's fun fun fun and you'll be missing out if you don't.

I was simply answering Viviannes charge by relating my personal experience of continuing to support events on the list until it just became too much of a hassle for me. Is that not what she was asking for?