Does this formula take into account that a premium account of today is 1/4 to 1/3 less than it was 2 years ago?
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-27-2006 11:01
Premium accounts were 30 or 40 dollars a month 2 years ago? |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-27-2006 11:06
I dont think Lindex should be used to in any way determine a person's "worth" or "value". It seems... offputting, in so many ways. |
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Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
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01-27-2006 11:06
Well, I LOVED Spitooney, and places like that, and like Four Seasons, are fabulous places to take friends who are new players.
Anyway, I think Reitsuki and others here should attend the next Linden roundtable meeting - whatever they call it - that happens every month, I think the next one is February 2nd, because I think they are gonna discuss ideas on "how to get people to charge for events." (hahahahahahaha as if.) I don't keep up with all the e-mail from that list, but I did read that. So it would be good if those with actual entertainment experience would attend, because what generally happens is people just talk about how we SHOULD charge for every event. hmph coco _____________________
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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01-27-2006 11:07
OK, don't call it "value", call it "weighting" or "wakalixes". The point is, dwell is one measure of how attractive builds are to customers and potential customers of LL. Builds that are attractive to paying customers (like, ones that are fun to hang out in) should be rewarded more, builds that are attractive to free-riders (like, ones that pay people a pittance to do nothing) should be rewarded less. Same diff. Whatever you call it, you make users of Lindex "better" users than people who choose not to use Lindex. Lindex doesn't equate to contribution to SL. _____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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01-27-2006 11:08
Welcome to 2005-2006 SL, cold hard $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is the only thing that matters here.  blink Eboni I gotta say I'm shocked by your posts today. I agree with most of them too.  Cat _____________________
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Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
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01-27-2006 11:08
Premium accounts were 30 or 40 dollars a month 2 years ago? No... but its possible that Eboni was referring to the old Stipend Bonus system Its always been that Basic accounts got L$50/month in stipend, and premium accounts got L$500/month. However - when I was a new resident (and for quite a while after), there was a "Bonus" stipend of up to L$1500, based upon the ratings you received. This meant that a basic account could get up to L$1550/week, and a premium account could get up to L$2000/week, providing they were very active with ratings. Since ratings were L$1 at the time, and folks rated each other like a handshake back then - it wasn't too hard to accomplish. _____________________
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The Shelter The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world. |
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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01-27-2006 11:39
The problem is, in my experience as one of the Spitoonie Islanders, is that they just don't make money. That's fine to a point, it was never about making a killing... But any signifigant amount of land is a serious investment of money every month. Even breaking even for a themepark can be very tricky. Most people wont ride the rides if you charge, even tiny fees, at least not more than once or twice. The point of making them is to have people enjoy them, so nobody wants to charge for the rides... So you set up other things around the island to get money, and people either ignore them or don't involve themselves with them. If you open a casino your just another casino, and the crowd doesnt really mix much with the themepark, and you have all the headache of running a casino as well... You can try selling rides, but sometimes you have a lot of work in rides, or other reasons you don't want to sell them - For example, the rollercoaster we built was extremely prim-heavy in the tracks, and was a lot of work to code and set up... And coulnd't just be sold "as is". Bumpercars were a sim-crasher so we couldn't dare sell them. Extreme-G rides had a tendancy to do really strange things after a while and enough use, so the tech support would be extremely frustrating. Etc. But even if you do sell the rides, IME, the sales are not *that* great... not enough people have land for them, or the money to buy them if you charge in any way proportional to what you have invested ina good ride. You can try combining it with other things, a club or a mall... But those create a ton of lag, and a themepark that is lagged is no fun for anyone. In short, it's a logistics headache the size of Africa :/ I only ever saw it on the last day but had a wonderful time walking around and seeing all the rides and other builds. It's really sad that places like this can't survive on their own terms. I know several themes parks in RL that are only able to exist because the city or some other level of government basically let them have the land for peanuts on a perpetual lease in that the attractions of the fair generate business and interest for the city. I have always thought that LL should be in the business of providing limited amounts of land for free to worthy projects and attractions of this type. If not for the crippling land fees there are many many beautiful and interesting builds that would still be with us. _____________________
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black art furniture & classic clothing =================== Black in Neufreistadt Black @ ONE Black @ www.SLBoutique.com . |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-27-2006 12:47
Same diff. Whatever you call it, you make users of Lindex "better" users than people who choose not to use Lindex. Lindex doesn't equate to contribution to SL. |
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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01-27-2006 12:49
I also make premium accounts "better" than basic, people who hold tier "better" than those who don't, and people who create content "better" than those who don't. I suspect you beat a Lindex user in two or even three of those categories. So a Lindex-using Basic would be weighted 1.25 points, and you'd be weighted 2 or 3 points. In this case, though, there is a tangible difference to LL... Lindex, being just a currency exchange, doesn't really have that same weight. _____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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01-27-2006 12:53
Premium accounts were 30 or 40 dollars a month 2 years ago? 2 years ago with light to moderate use of SL my weekly stipend was $1500-2000L a week. Before I went back to basic it was around $500L a week. Subcription price, unchanged. |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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01-27-2006 12:56
OK, don't call it "value", call it "weighting" or "wakalixes". The point is, dwell is one measure of how attractive builds are to customers and potential customers of LL. Builds that are attractive to paying customers (like, ones that are fun to hang out in) should be rewarded more, builds that are attractive to free-riders (like, ones that pay people a pittance to do nothing) should be rewarded less. The problem is the assumption that the "free-riders" you talk about don't contribute anything. Your original plan gave points to people who buy stuff on Lindex, whose main contribution is to allow other people to cash out. But likewise, the "free-riders" have the main contribution of allowing people - and in particular events - to become popular. Now you might say "popularity doesn't pay tier", which is true, but it does make there be a point to doing things. It'd be no fun to run a club - or a theme park for that matter - if nobody ever showed up. It's arguably the availablity of an easy audience that's more of a reason to build on SL than the availability of easy money (since it's a) not easy and b) not much money). |
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Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
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01-28-2006 10:37
<shrugs>
I did some experimentation on that. I can say that Techra failed to make even basic tier in donations, let alone the 50,000 lindens a month it would need to make to survive. It's not that all we care about is money, it's that without money, it becomes a drain on our pocket-books to pay for other people's entertainment when most of them will not help support the costs of that entertainment. If the visitors don't pay, I have to. AND I have to maintain the sim... Sooo... I should spend hours and hours maintaining other people's entertainment AND pay money for the pleasure?  Come and see the Sim-Tree at Techra while you can kids. It's probably not going to be around much longer. On a side note, I'm going to have a surplus of time to explore SL again! |
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Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
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01-28-2006 10:40
Please see my comments under "Land and the Economy," at the end of Business Mission's thread, "Is Dwell Going to Go Away?" or something like that.
coco _____________________
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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01-28-2006 10:59
It's not that all we care about is money, it's that without money, it becomes a drain on our pocket-books to pay for other people's entertainment when most of them will not help support the costs of that entertainment. If the visitors don't pay, I have to. AND I have to maintain the sim... Sooo... I should spend hours and hours maintaining other people's entertainment AND pay money for the pleasure? Exactly. It was never *about* the money... until it became about *our* money. _____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
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01-28-2006 11:54
Exactly. It was never *about* the money... until it became about *our* money. It's a quandry all right. SOMEONE has to pay for the bandwidth used, as the cost comes down the line: Backbone ISP -> Linden Labs -> Land owner -> Visitor... If either of the first two eat the cost, we won't have SL for long, so that leaves the Land Owners and Visitors... |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-28-2006 14:02
In this case, though, there is a tangible difference to LL... Lindex, being just a currency exchange, doesn't really have that same weight. And, yes, it does have a tangible effect on Linden Labs. All that money they get from Anshe? How much of that came through LindeX? When a vendor pays rent on a store from the sale of their goods, and that pays tier on the mall, the only way that gets turned from L$ into US$ is through exchanges. Without the exchanges, there wouldn't be any Second Life. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-28-2006 14:13
The problem is the assumption that the "free-riders" you talk about don't contribute anything. In fact I've suggested, elsewhere, that part of the dwell should go *to* these folks, so that the ones who do contribute to SL by making SL a more interesting place for paying customers can be rewarded for it. Your original plan gave points to people who buy stuff on Lindex Now you might say "popularity doesn't pay tier", which is true, but it does make there be a point to doing things. It'd be no fun to run a club - or a theme park for that matter - if nobody ever showed up. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-28-2006 14:22
2 years ago with light to moderate use of SL my weekly stipend was $1500-2000L a week. Before I went back to basic it was around $500L a week. Subcription price, unchanged. Honest. I don't understand what you're getting at. What difference should that make to the formula? It's not supposed to be precise. It doesn't have to be. It just has to do better than "everyone spends the same amount on concessions" or "everyone has the same value to Linden Labs". |
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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01-28-2006 17:35
And what does that have to do with anything? Honest. I don't understand what you're getting at. What difference should that make to the formula? It's not supposed to be precise. It doesn't have to be. It just has to do better than "everyone spends the same amount on concessions" or "everyone has the same value to Linden Labs". Basic common sense sense says don't pay more for less, and I don't. There are many people that add a lot to SL and don't contribute a lot to the economy. Do you think Torley paid for all her watermelon stuff in SL? No, most people gave her those items and since she is the Patron Saint of SL 2nd to only Aimee, we can safely say she has added a lot to SL without adding a ton to the economy. I used to contribute a lot of RL $$ to SL including owning a private island. The current marketing and direction of SL does not meet my standards as an entertainment venue, so I have decided to speak with my pocket and I won't contribute RL $$$ to something that has no value for me. Anyway you need to add the "X" factor that there really isnt much worth paying for in SL your formula. You need to address the fact that most people aren't premium in SL because they don't see the value in SL, and refuse to pay. |
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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01-28-2006 20:47
There are many people that add a lot to SL and don't contribute a lot to the economy. Do you think Torley paid for all her watermelon stuff in SL? No, most people gave her those items and since she is the Patron Saint of SL 2nd to only Aimee, we can safely say she has added a lot to SL without adding a ton to the economy. PATRON SAINT OF SL?! Aweeeee BEST BIRTHDAY GIFT EVAH! _____________________
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Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
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01-29-2006 12:56
2 years ago with light to moderate use of SL my weekly stipend was $1500-2000L a week. Before I went back to basic it was around $500L a week. Subcription price, unchanged. Hmmm, the value of an account was lessened because you couldn't game the system anymore... _____________________
It may be true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but it is also true that the squeaky wheel gets replaced at the first critical maintenance opportunity.
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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01-29-2006 15:59
Hmmm, the value of an account was lessened because you couldn't game the system anymore... I never gamed the system, please don't attempt to personally insult me just because you disagree with me. I barely spent more than 5 hours a week in SL most weeks at that time. Logging into SL from an airport over wireless broadband only works so well. There is less in SL worth paying for. That is my simple opinion. Since most people aren't premium account holders, I think I am with the majority. |
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Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
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01-29-2006 20:55
I never gamed the system, please don't attempt to personally insult me just because you disagree with me. I barely spent more than 5 hours a week in SL most weeks at that time. Logging into SL from an airport over wireless broadband only works so well. There is less in SL worth paying for. That is my simple opinion. Since most people aren't premium account holders, I think I am with the majority. I'm not insulting you, I am commenting on your position that because you aren't getting the "bonus" any more so SL doesn't have enough value for you to play the game. Those were your words. If you were getting $1000L + a week in bonus money you were taking advantage of the rampant rating going on and reaping the monitary rewards. A large number of people were taking advantage of the situation, myself included. I, however, did not tier down because I stopped getting bonus money. I built a business in game that put me in the top 100 on the leaderboard (back when there was one) instead that has made me a lot more than dancing at a club and exchanging ratings ever did. I respect your position that SL doesn't hold value for you and tiering down made sense in your situation, I just think citing the reason as no longer getting free money from the "virtual government" by taking advantage of a system flaw or exploit is rather a poor one. Oh and the majority of people in Mongolia drink fermented yak milk and Chrysler sold an awful lot of K cars and according to Don Nash's resent servey, "47.31% of Americans surveyed felt strongly that Saddam Hussein was George Bush’s brother-in-law." _____________________
It may be true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but it is also true that the squeaky wheel gets replaced at the first critical maintenance opportunity.
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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01-29-2006 21:53
I respect your position that SL doesn't hold value for you and tiering down made sense in your situation, I just think citing the reason as no longer getting free money from the "virtual government" by taking advantage of a system flaw or exploit is rather a poor one. The SL account I originally bought and paid for monthly no longer exists so I dont pay for it. I never did the ratings thing but I did spend a lot fo time creating and exploring, and you used to get $L for that. Was that the best idea? No, but the fact remains todays account is not equal to the account of 2 years and SL is slower now than it was then. LOL Stipend is hardly the reason I left SL, the RL $$ lay out didn't make sense any more, and the technical issues were more than I could handly. I haven't been able to build or move well in months. You can argue with me until you are blue in the face, the numbers tell the real story. The 10% conversion rate speaks for itself. SL does not seem valuable to most people. It doesn't matter if it is the best thing since sliced bread if no one wants it. |
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Waves Lightcloud
SexBall Safety Designer
Join date: 22 May 2004
Posts: 193
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01-29-2006 22:40
The problem is, in my experience as one of the Spitoonie Islanders, :/ Spitoonie Was a Great Place, One of the best ever built !! But like America , and that Spaceneedle thingie gone. The hope and dream that planes -boats -and cars would really be able to work, They were so close at one point so close..... Then Some Uber Tecno Scewballs totally wrecked the code with the death of SL " STREAMING " then it just went down hill from there each VU got worse, the land dump, all the changes that never made SL better( a few minor neat things maybe ) but at a cost of so much more. Tang & I have long sence moved on to another game over 3 months now. All that is left is to sell the sims, Yep Sakia is forsale- and a 20k plus in shoefly. I dont need to sell the sim (kinda rl rich) but She wants closeure. If your looking for a great Sim * one of the best in the game * im me with your offer, bring an Anshi size wallet, this is not one of the land dump hack models. - Waves oh ps also one hellava yardsale too, but one thing I would never part with: My Autographed Shwan Sheepskin Rug |