Is it Donations *or* Pay to Play? My Thoughts As One Voice...

I was going to put this in "events" category, however it is not for "review" of any event. So, here I am....
I just left along with my lady, a well known gaming area, playing Pizzaria. I'm hooked on the game... great fun.. and off the path of norm of tringo and slingo.
Neither one of us won, however... in taking part in our fun, we each "donated" to each game we played. We donated out of our own free will to help the pot get larger, and as a thank you to the host for putting it on. Doesn't matter the amount we donated. Example.. I give a set amount normally when I play... if I happen to win a game, I always, on my own free will, donate a larger amount as a thank you.
I don't play really to win.. but for the fun of it. If I win.. great!!!, but if I don't.. least found some fun times in my secondlife.
Now.. this event we were at... a person won.. it was a good size pot... but, really, doesn't matter the amount.. many people were there..and I watched as donations were made and how the pot was raising. Was not large amount of donations per person.. but a nice contribute by most person playing.
Ever have something just hit you wrong.. even if it seems trival? Well.. I was amazed, when told to guests.. in chat by the host.. insisted at the end of this large payout... about winners having to donate. Now in my view.. I did not see if this winner for one, was a new comer, and could really use the linden's he won.. or a seasoned player.. that wasn't concerned.. that wasn't the point. I did not see anywhere first of all.. that it was a "pay to play" game. If I had.. I would of never gone there. There are plenty of other people putting out game plays in world that it is donate welcome, but not required.
Now my view is here.. and tell me if I'm wrong... if it is.. .donate by will, but not required.. that to me is "donation"..... if it is an expectation... that is "pay to play", in which.. should be in writing in the "rules" or, in the "event notification" on boards.
I would like to add another observation of this event.... in the time I was present during this hosted game. The host had won few nice pots, and did not donate near his winnings, which amazed me. Many games I've attended, a host begins at a certain start pot.. and normally donates back their winnings (or least a larger amount then just normal donation) since they are hosting the event and not just one of the players.
Final thoughts... while I'm "rambling".... or was that "ranting"... Post it, give expectations if it is a "pay to play". If you're going to host, and play.. then pay out what you verbally expect of your "guests". For as much as I had enjoyed myself up til this... I won't be attending another pizza party at this establishment on grounds of principal.

Ren

Personally, I think its rather tacky to demand anyone to make a donation. When you demand somehting, its not a donation anymore... its a fee.

If its that important that the 'pot' grows higher, an amount should be deducted from the player's 'winnings' automatically.

If you win $1000 at Tringo or whatever, and are expected to give $500 back - you didn't just win $1000.... you won $500.

Of course, if an establishment can say that you won $1000, that looks better for them. And marketing games as 'Free' have a much better draw than those that are pay-to-play.

For that reason, I doubt folks that run their games in this way will change their ways. If you find this tactic offensive, the best thing to do is to simply vote with your feet, and find another place to play that doesn't operate this way.

Seconded.

I don't have any great interest in playing those games, but if I did, I'd laugh at anyone insisting on such a thing.

That's like an employer paying you a certain salary, and then demanding that part of your paycheck be "donated" back "for the good of the company". Uh ... right.

I remember the first time I tried Tringo, I won the pot and decided it was somewhat fun but not something I wanted to play twice in succession. So I took the pot winnings and left.

Not a minute after I left, I recieved an angry IM about me taking all the money and not donating anything. I basically told her I didn't want to play anymore and the purpose of donating is that it's done of free will, if you wanted people to pay for the game then you should have asked.

I agree, it is rather rude and stupid to be demanding donations out of people, even if they were fortunate enough to come into money at the end of the game.

But what can you do about it? There's no regulatory board for these matters and "Donations" sounds better than "Pay to play", these places run off of having bigger pots, since Tringo in one place is Tringo in another place, and they need to be competitive.

Asking the winner to donate some percentage of their winnings back into the pot seems to be a fairly common tradition here in Second Life. Those who run these types of games claim that this helps keeps the pot at nice levels and keeps people sticking around to play.

I think that it's unfortunate that things ended up this way. They want you to donate to start the game, and then again if you win. I think that sucks. In my opinion, it should be one or the other, not both.

The thing that gets me is that they don't document these rules (your just supposed to know) nor enforce by script (i.e., make you pay a certain number of Lindens to start and/or only play out a percentage of the winnings to you using the rest to seed to pot).

I think it's stupid to get pissed off at people for breaking rules that aren't documented, aren't reasonable, and were unknown to that person.

HP

Most games like Slingo, Tringo, and Pizzaria are never pay to play. Donations are requested for the pot, but one is never outright told that they have to pay in order to play. The only exception, generally, tends to be high roller games where it is made known in advance that there is a minimum amount that each person has to contribute in order to participate.

I don't know if it's the same place that you visited, but one establishment, well known for Slingo and Tringo, has actually made a few policy changes. A good portion of the hosts no longer are given money to put into the pot throughout their shift. This is mainly done because of the expense involved, although there are a few who will still opt to take the money and add to the pot. It's also generally believed that, for the most part, the customers can usually get the pot up to a very decent level on their own.

For those hosts who no longer are given any money to contribute to the pot, if they are now expected to pay into the pot, they'd now be doing so out of their own pocket. Unfortunately, the pay rate during the time that they are hosting rarely, if ever, would cover for that expense.

Also, at this same establishment, there are now signs up to inform customers of some common courtesy when it comes to participating - including, after a win, putting at least 20% back into the pot, and tipping the host. I honestly can't tell you the number of shifts that I've worked where I have never gotten a single tip because of how extensive that number actually is.

Unfortunately, the presence of those signs isn't going to totally prevent someone from just walking away with the entire pot and not adding back in out of courtesy. Not only will customers get snippy with the individual who walked away, they will sometimes get snippy with the hosts as well as they believe that the hosts should have had some control and not allowed it to happen.

Then again, these individuals usually get snippy when the pot is pretty low, and nobody's contributing to it. It kind of puts the hosts in a position where there's no winning.

I do highly agree that host should not have dealt with the matter through the regular chat. That was just rude and highly inappropriate, as the person could have easily been a newbie. It should have been dealt with through IMs.

What Zania says makes me further believe that these rules have to be implemented by script (a notecard will help, but a script is better). You simply can't expect everyone to have the same or even anywhere near similar opinion on what amount to donate before and after the game.

Just make everyone have to pay the same amount to play and automatically divide up the pot after a win (and document all this so everyone knows). Then everyone knows, everything is fair, and everyone is happy.

HP

Are you a host or a volunteer, Zania? If you're a volunteer at your place of employment, you shouldn't expect anything in tips - although its a nice gesture when someone feels you're doing a great job.

If you're not a volunteer you should expect your employer to pay you a wage that is worth your time, instead of them using peer pressure on their customers to pay you.

'Tipping' and 'Pot Donations' are not common courtisies, although I can imagine the effectiveness of your employer spinning it that way. Customers end up not only funding their hosts (Tipping) but at the same time funding their games (Pot Donations). To me it sounds like pay-to-play without all the baggage for your employer.

Travis, I think you missed part of the point of what I had written. Not everyone has to pay in order to participate in the game. That part will always be optional, unless it's said up front.

As for adding back into the pot or tipping after a win, that generally is common courtesy. I've seen it or heard about it at just about every place that I've been to, especially sites that do have games like Slingo, Tringo, etc, and there have been quite a few that I have visited (more than 30).

Just last night, we had a guy that won over L$1500. Want to know how much he put in? Not even L$100, and EVERYONE was complaining to me about that as if I had some kind of control over it! And, to top things off, they were even complaining because they guy didn't tip me, either.

It's like getting heat from both ends - people like yourself with arguments against adding to the pot, yet people walking away with everything.

I'm a paid host, but the wage is barely anything. I can't build or script, nobody seems to want to teach me, so I can't make money that way. Hosts for these games need to make a living in Second Life as well, and that's impossible for me at this point.

You mean you don't want to learn how to build or script. From what i've seen there's classes for it everyday in events, and besides, a lot of people who build now learned how to do it by just going in the sandbox and messing around with things.

You don't need to make a living in SL. There's no one going to be starving to death because they don't have enough bread. You just want money in SL, and if you're going to do a job based around tipping and a small wage you're going to have to deal with some people not tipping, especially when they don't feel obligated too.

There's no common courtesy tipping rules in SL.

I've never played Tringo but if I decided I wanted a go, turned up, won something and then had to go, and somebody said "no you have to put money in the pot" my reaction would be "er, no I don't".

Having "unwritten rules" like this is a bad idea, and having wages reliant on tips is also a bad idea, and personally I think that's the case in RL as well. It's a hidden unstated charge, and also a reward for being antisocial if people end up with more money when they don't respect the rules.

No, Artemis, it's not that I dont want to. I do want to, but there's nobody who wants to teach me.

During the times that I'm generally on (because of my work schedule) there are no buliding or scripting classes offered. If there are any, they're always advanced classes and you need to know something about building or scripting in order to participate in them.

I can't script, mostly because I don't want to, but building and texturing I taught myself, trial and error and by bugging the hell out of people who are better at it than I am. There are a couple great tutorials for making clothes in this forum. You can't learn how to do anything by saying "I can't" If you really want to do something else, do it.

*snort* Not a pay to play?

My experience in one place has left a rather bitter taste in my mouth and in fact now limits me to playing very little of my favorite game.. Slingo. I don't play for the freaking pot, I play because I LIKE THE GAME. It takes a while to find the right atmosphere where one can relax, not deal with the lag and not deal with idiots who scream SEX all the time.

Needless to say, I thought I found the right place, with friendly people and a nice overall view. Nothing saying I "HAVE" to do this or that. So, I donate to the first pot, lost the game and was happy with that. I was low on the Ls so I knew I couldn't donate to the next pot as I wanted to upload some textures for some outfits after a few hands of my addiction. The pot is well over 500L, but I get a tell from another player saying that I "should donate to the pot so everyone can enjoy the game!" Needless to say, that was quite enough to annoy me. I don't want to explain that hey, if you /have/ to donate then how the heck are you gonna attract new players? I don't wanna explain that I really just enjoy playing the game and will definately contribute to the pot, when I have the L to do so. I also don't want to explain that whenever I win a pot, half the winnings go back to the pot. Not to anyone. Period. I shouldn't have to, just like I shouldn't have to donate to the pot. Just because you did, doesn't mean that I can or should - but bravo for you that you did. I won't win it more than likely, so shove off. I am here to play a GAME and don't care if the pot is only 1L!

I felt annoyed enough to just walk off, without putting my card back. And I didn't respond, because I felt that it was pointless to point things out and then say, "Well, I don't have the L at this time." What would that have done? Oh, right.. caused me to be banned, because the other party probably would have gotten snippy with me, since they were rude enough to IM me in the first place.

So, my take on this is, "Well, you win some, you lose some, and don't sweat the rest." I don't care if others don't contribute to the pot. I don't care if they take the winnings and run. That's just the way it is. I can live with it, but I can live without being reminded how perfect YOU ARE in IM.

New Citizens Incorporated has a Basic Building class every Tuesday from 2pm to 4pm, and an Advanced Building Class every Saturday from 6pm to 7:30 pm. We also have a copy of The Sojourner's "The Mighty Prim" self-paced building tutorial.

I hope some of these would be of help. If not, please contact me in world. I'm interested in adding new classes to NCI's schedule to help underserved shifts/time zones.

I consider that to be a deceptive business practice. I never heard of such a silly thing and absolutely have never considered "giving back" a certain amount of my winnings to a pot. Perhaps I will from time to time, but insisting that one does it is like forced gambling.



And??? Maybe he wanted to buy something that cost $1400LD. As for getting a tip, I have one for you. Stop expecting people to tip you. Oh and don't spit in the wind. Never eat the yellow snow.

Maybe he is just a poor guy who can't learn how to buld or script and playing these games is his only source of income. Maybe he takes his LD winning and cashes them out for real money so he can buy much needed medication for his elderly grandmother. Just the thought of this makes me want to cry. This is the sort of thing you usually only see on the Lifetime Channel or AT&T commercials.

How much of your dwell do you tip back to the contestants so that they have money to tip into the game so that you have a place to work and get tips? It is viscious cycle I tell you.