Speaking up for Second Life
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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07-23-2006 07:48
From: History Rust After four years of working in eCommerce, stability is the last thing I expect. Servers going down, software bugs (which always seem to happen when no one is around who can fix it), server upgrades that aren't, hacking, fraud, laws changing, the list is long. Running a business (online, on SL, or in RL) carries risks ... many you know about, some you don't. Not to say that you can't complain about it, just that excessive complaining is .... excessive.  I understand things can go wrong but i`m still not understanding how something with this many...problems....was released. Was it impossible for them to discover these unless releasing? Isn`t there some sort of testing they could have done to make sure it was good for release? :| |
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sachi Vixen
Some Brit who makes stuff
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 606
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07-23-2006 07:49
From: Mustelid Carnot That's the stupidest thing I ever read. Second Life sells itself as a place you can do business in. That's like saying we can't get pissed at a mall because without the mall, we wouldn't have a place to put our store. Of COURSE we can, if we're paying money and they sold that mall as a good place to do business, then if they keep having to close it at weird hours to deal with issues, it's not a good mall and not complaining (moaning) only gives the impression that they should keep doing as they are doing. Thank you, I would never dream of calling you stupid since we haven't met.
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One can survive everything, nowadays, except death, and live down everything except a good reputation.
Oscar Wilde
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Dana Bergson
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 561
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07-23-2006 07:51
We invested into more than 20 sims in the last 3 months. And we plan to grow further in the coming months at the same rate or faster. Linden support sometimes was bit erratic with regard to reply time but has always been helpful and enthusiastic. Woot for Cyn and Jack! Lets be reasonable: how long was the combined downtime in the last 6 months? I don't know the exact number but I am sure it is well within specifications for such a service. Downtimes can be nasty, aggreed. But when you know they will be there, announced or unannounced, you simply adjust your business plan accordingly and move on. At least all the competition has to suffer the same problems.  |
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
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07-23-2006 07:51
From: Jesseaitui Petion I understand things can go wrong but i`m still not understanding how something with this many...problems....was released.
Was it impossible for them to discover these unless releasing? Isn`t there some sort of testing they could have done to make sure it was good for release? :| I quote myself from another thread. This might help. From: Aodhan McDunnough Having been a playtester elsewhere I have to say this isn't an experience unique to SL.
We spend something like one to two months testing major expansions on a test server. We have lists of things to check, testing methodologies, procedures and the like. Internal playtesters and external playtesters (us) give in their feedback on bugs. Critical bugs get worked on, some bugs will slip through because of time constraints, that's all normal.
But even after all our testing (and we're pretty brutal in testing sometimes) some major bugs still appear for some inexplicable reason when the patch is applied to the commercial servers.
I've learned it's unrealistic to expect that after bugs have been fixed on a test server that they won't reappear on the regular servers. It just never goes smoothly.
Best thing we can do as players is to not do anything risky (like do major builds) at around the time of an update and always keep backups.
Prepare as if every update were a hurricane. Lockdown your stuff, don't do risky things, stay logged out if you must.
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Aodhan's Forge shop at slurl.com/secondlife/Rieul/95/213/107
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sachi Vixen
Some Brit who makes stuff
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 606
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07-23-2006 07:51
From: cinda Hoodoo You actually complained about a problem the same way i ask for a raise in real, start off with some good old fashioned ass kissing, but by the time the Lidens got to your second paragraph they were poping champagne corks, and prolly missed the meat of your post.
That bug you speak of could well put SL on its ass, why would i create anything that could be stolen and exploited for someone elses use and profit ?? why i ask you ?? i think you make a VERY important point here, of all the bugs ive seen, and why it worked before and not now, kinda thing, that one is by far the worst for an income generating game.
I can only hope that LL is working to repair this one faster than the minor exploit they have the grid down for now... Thanks I'm glad you caught the point.
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One can survive everything, nowadays, except death, and live down everything except a good reputation.
Oscar Wilde
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sachi Vixen
Some Brit who makes stuff
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 606
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07-23-2006 07:55
From: Jesseaitui Petion rofl. You don`t agree they should =try= to be more stable than they`ve been?
Wow. I didn't say that and how do you know they aren't trying to be more stable? Maybe trying to fix things and make it more stable is why they are closed right now?
_____________________
One can survive everything, nowadays, except death, and live down everything except a good reputation.
Oscar Wilde
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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07-23-2006 07:55
From: Aodhan McDunnough I quote myself from another thread. This might help. Thanks for the reply. It did help, I think a lot of us are just lashing out because of a lack of knowledge on what`s going on- and I admit I am guilty of that. I assume with such a business as SL they can`t be dumb enough to -not- be testing things. |
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History Rust
Autonomous Paperweight
Join date: 25 May 2006
Posts: 99
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07-23-2006 07:56
From: Jesseaitui Petion I understand things can go wrong but i`m still not understanding how something with this many...problems....was released.
Was it impossible for them to discover these unless releasing? Isn`t there some sort of testing they could have done to make sure it was good for release? :| Bug testing is an important part of development, but it costs money. There's a "diminishing returns" point that's reached pretty quickly (LL uses the preview grid as an additional check beyond what the staff does). Nevertheless, there will always be bugs .... just like automotive recalls, some things won't be found until you have 10,000 using something. |
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sachi Vixen
Some Brit who makes stuff
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 606
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07-23-2006 07:56
From: Lord Sullivan A sad fact of life is that some people are never happy and like to vent in the forums instead of looking to help effect constructive changes to Second Life  I agree with you in what you have just said, but then i also look at the big picture while many others continue to enjoy wearing blinkers as it makes them feeel good when they belittle something or some one else, I often wonder if they are as angry in RL as they are on the forums no wonder the world has so many problems with so many angry people around Lets focus on the positives for a change and if Second Lifes is so Sh*t for you players that are complaining, theres many other VR worlds to try, i have a list for those that want to leave but none are a patch on here That's very well said.
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One can survive everything, nowadays, except death, and live down everything except a good reputation.
Oscar Wilde
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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07-23-2006 07:58
From: Jesseaitui Petion You don`t agree they should =try= to be more stable than they`ve been? From: sachi Vixen I didn't say that *Earlier* me- "they should atleast try to be a bit more stable than they`ve been. Dont ya think?" you- "In an ideal world yes. But is your world ideal? Mine isn't." |
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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07-23-2006 07:59
From: History Rust some things won't be found until you have 10,000 using something. Ah, I see. That is interesting. |
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
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07-23-2006 07:59
From: Jesseaitui Petion Thanks for the reply.
It did help, I think a lot of us are just lashing out because of a lack of knowledge on what`s going on- and I admit I am guilty of that. I assume with such a business as SL they can`t be dumb enough to -not- be testing things. Very glad it helped. I'm not one to always pat the back of LL, most especially when they're not doing something right, but I'm also not one to throw bombs at them for getting something wrong. Due to the nature of the medium it's in my best interest to help them find the problems, and help them develop the solutions. As History Rust said, and is very true, "some things won't be found until you have 10,000 using something."
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Aodhan's Forge shop at slurl.com/secondlife/Rieul/95/213/107
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sachi Vixen
Some Brit who makes stuff
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 606
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07-23-2006 08:02
From: Angelica Bennett BRAVO SACHI!
Everyday I am here I find something new. SL pushes the creative envelope in us all. I am completely amazed at the entire site. Not to mention, as you said, joining people from all over the world the way it should be.
So a few bumps along the way should be accepted by us all and we should thank LL for their dedication. Well said Angelica!
_____________________
One can survive everything, nowadays, except death, and live down everything except a good reputation.
Oscar Wilde
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sachi Vixen
Some Brit who makes stuff
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 606
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07-23-2006 08:06
From: History Rust After four years of working in eCommerce, stability is the last thing I expect. Servers going down, software bugs (which always seem to happen when no one is around who can fix it), server upgrades that aren't, hacking, fraud, laws changing, the list is long. Running a business (online, on SL, or in RL) carries risks ... many you know about, some you don't. Not to say that you can't complain about it, just that excessive complaining is .... excessive. That is a really important point. There is risk in any business and problems. How would we cut it with a real life business if we can't cope with a little instability here? Come to that where else could I buy and sustain my own island with a store on it that people can teleport into any time of day or night for 1299 plus 195 USD a month? How much is Fiji or the Isle of Wight?!
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One can survive everything, nowadays, except death, and live down everything except a good reputation.
Oscar Wilde
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stpaulsub Clio
Fear the Bubblegum Gurl!
Join date: 2 Sep 2004
Posts: 607
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07-23-2006 08:08
From: Jesseaitui Petion But the thing is- is that when a lot of us bought these SIMs, land etc, the grid seemed a lot more stable. Then, with each update, it just got worse and worse. I must admit it never seemed to STAY 'worse' but this time..i`m at a loss of words. ROFL sorry..but i have been reading this post since 1.5 came out! The sky is falling! The Grid is not as stable as it was!, SL is doomed, I demand a refund!, It was better before! i know you did not say or even imply most of these but this type of thread has been around since day one. Guess what, overall, SL is MUCH better than it was when i started. However, this latest upgrade has been less than steller, but it is far from the worst in teh last year.
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From: someone David Valentino: I think I just like to play with the balls
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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07-23-2006 08:14
From: Aodhan McDunnough If you find it's not worth the cost, then do what a good businessman would do.
People may wonder why I never lose my head in complaining to LL. It's because I do understand the ramifications of what SL stands for from a technology perspective.
Complaining will not get anywhere not because LL doesn't listen. They do, and they try to keep things good. Complaining will not get anywhere only because it's not a matter of management. We and Linden Lab ride a pitching and bucking dragon. This dragon is magical and takes us to places others only dream about, but to get there, we have to put up with its bucking. The dragon listens to no-one's complaints, not ours, and not those of the Lindens either. The Lindens have a small amount of control over this dragon, but the dragon is tempermental.
That is how technology of this sort should be viewed. You are on the forefront of something new. Put up with the earthquakes, storms, and the bucking ride.
Or stay on the ground. You miss my whole point. I am a very different person in SL than in RL! I come to SL to get away from my troubles in real life and not develop a brown nose. The preview is open but............... |
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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07-23-2006 08:14
From: stpaulsub Clio ROFL sorry..but i have been reading this post since 1.5 came out! The sky is falling! The Grid is not as stable as it was!, SL is doomed, I demand a refund!, It was better before!
i know you did not say or even imply most of these but this type of thread has been around since day one. Guess what, overall, SL is MUCH better than it was when i started. However, this latest upgrade has been less than steller, but it is far from the worst in teh last year. "ROFL" Read some of my other posts in this thread- I said I have not been here for too long so I`m not sure how things used to be. -but- there was a time, as I know it, when it seemed rather safe to invest the money, and that's typically when people do. |
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Bruno Buckenburger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 464
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07-23-2006 08:21
I have to say I am amazed at how some of you are more than willing to just roll over and take whatever LL gives you. Yes, whining over and over everytime there is a hiccup is counter-productive and does nothing to improve the environment. However, we are into the third year of this type of methodology for rolling out updates. There is little if any quality control (deja vu -- I wrote this well over a year ago).
We complain becase we see the inherent benefits of this environment and want SL to succeed. We complain because many do have investments of time and capital in this product. We complain because this is not the dawn of the Information Age -- it is expected that the product should not be as flawed as it continues to be.
I'm torqued because I feel LL continues to emphasize PR and Marketing over the need to develop a stable product. Their continous scheduled downtime each Wednesday would be unacceptable in any other business environment. Throw on top of that the now random unscheduled downtimes and you really have an environment unworthy to conduct commerce or any other activity beyond base social interaction.
If LL was a government agency it would be FEMA. I know everyone is heaping it on them today and my joining the masses does not add anything to the discussion. But, their inaction and repeated failures put them in this position -- not those of us with negative attitudes.
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History Rust
Autonomous Paperweight
Join date: 25 May 2006
Posts: 99
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A quick aside ....
07-23-2006 08:22
From: Jesseaitui Petion "ROFL"
Read some of my other posts in this thread- I said I have not been here for too long so I`m not sure how things used to be.
-but- there was a time, as I know it, when it seemed rather safe to invest the money, and that's typically when people do. If someone refers to a market as "exciting", "dynamic", or "fluid", they mean "a roller coaster with no brakes". My area still has a lot of unused office space left over from the "Dot Com" era. |
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Dimitri Arizona
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 10
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07-23-2006 08:23
Second Life keeps me sane.
Plus it lets me be a rat.
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Giddeon Charming
The One and Only
Join date: 2 Feb 2005
Posts: 30
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07-23-2006 08:23
From: Ambrosia Whittenton If they wanted to be dicks about it they could start charging for EVERYONE that wanted to join, not just premium members. I think this is a perfect idea! Get rid of all the griefers, terrorist and stalkers with 32 alts! Good idea! |
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Dimitri Arizona
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 10
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07-23-2006 08:24
From: Bruno Buckenburger I have to say I am amazed at how some of you are more than willing to just roll over and take whatever LL gives you. Yes, whining over and over everytime there is a hiccup is counter-productive and does nothing to improve the environment. However, we are into the third year of this type of methodology for rolling out updates. There is little if any quality control (deja vu -- I wrote this well over a year ago).
We complain becase we see the inherent benefits of this environment and want SL to succeed. We complain because many do have investments of time and capital in this product. We complain because this is not the dawn of the Information Age -- it is expected that the product should not be as flawed as it continues to be.
I'm torqued because I feel LL continues to emphasize PR and Marketing over the need to develop a stable product. Their continous scheduled downtime each Wednesday would be unacceptable in any other business environment. Throw on top of that the now random unscheduled downtimes and you really have an environment unworthy to conduct commerce or any other activity beyond base social interaction.
If LL was a government agency it would be FEMA. I know everyone is heaping it on them today and my joining the masses does not add anything to the discussion. But, their inaction and repeated failures put them in this position -- not those of us with negative attitudes. Huh? EDIT: Oh, sorry, I understand now: you are putting up a pretense of caring about anyone but yourself in wanting SL back up. Whatever helps you feel like Christ on the cross, champ. |
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sachi Vixen
Some Brit who makes stuff
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 606
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07-23-2006 09:13
From: Giddeon Charming I think this is a perfect idea! Get rid of all the griefers, terrorist and stalkers with 32 alts! Good idea! Right on brother! I do believe LL could learn from Active Worlds in this area as I've stated before. There you have a tourist and Citizen, Citizens pay and get a full program. Tourists can see but can't go to mature area, can't have a friends list, can't change from generic grey avatar. In this way SL could introduce the program to newcomers who would then pay to become citizens to stay and use the full program.
_____________________
One can survive everything, nowadays, except death, and live down everything except a good reputation.
Oscar Wilde
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