OK chaps, this is going to be a bit of a rant....
Yesterday, I wrote an article about freebie reselling. Unaware of the action taken on the events list and the yard sales (see separate threads started by other people) I decided to take a trawl around SL looking at the yard sales posted yesterday to the events list.
What I found horrified me. I found:
*people reselling originals of someone else's items, at nearly DOUBLE the price the new ones cost
*people reselling copyable pose balls from two creators, for $0-$25
*people selling freebies (mine!)
*people selling items which are provided free at Help Island, for new residents
*people organising events to draw attention to their "bargains" at double cost price. Wow!
Of course I know that these things go on...I have posted often, and have got into fights on the forums about selling of other people's creations. But this is becoming widespread.
So...I posted an event SCAMBUSTING in the events calendar...carefully named no names, and promised 10 lindens to anyone who located new scams.
I had a LOT of positive feedback. People I IMd to explain that they were selling other people's work and undercutting them, were on the whole responsive and took things off sale - or made them non copyable.
Creators IMd me to support what I was doing.
Residents IMd me to support what I was doing.
The event got cancelled....
Just as an afterthought I went to a famous junkyard, just to see what was there.
What I saw horrified me....
*60 poseballs from a well-known creator, which are sold with full perms for restricted uses at $250 each...for $1. That's how they have been getting out into the wild.
*HUNDREDs of textures made FTC although the FTC box isn't ticked on them.
(Both removed immediately from sale, I believe.)
I was up until 4.30am looking into boxes and getting more and more annoyed. Don't get me wrong, I am a big supporter of freebies, have made and distributed a huge number myself. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE REAL FREE TO COPIES.
Selling other people's creations for $1 which they sell for 3600...which is what is happening in another case...is JUST NOT ON.
Seems to me that as a community we have to work to stop all these abuses. I propose setting up a community-wide group, which signs up to a code of practice, agrees never to sell other people's work without express individual permission for every single item, agrees never to sell free to copies, agrees to treat customers and other creators fairly and honestly.
It may be that as creators we can do other things...ban persistent offenders from ALL OUR LAND. Once that means that they can't go to the most popoular places in SL, maybe it will begin to bite.
If anyone wants to drop information on me about scams, please do.
If anyone wants to help - please volunteer.
If anyone has ideas - spit em out.
Rant over
Cali
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Scambusting |
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Caliandris Pendragon
Waiting in the light
Join date: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 643
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05-07-2006 02:16
_____________________
Numbakulla: Pot Healer's Mystery, free to play and explore
http://caliinsecondlife.blogspot.com/ http://www.nemesis-content.com]Nemesis Content Creation _________________________________________________ The main obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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Caliandris Pendragon
Waiting in the light
Join date: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 643
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05-07-2006 02:22
OK double posting, tsk.
I am willing to maintain a register of free to copies, by alphabetical first name of creator. That way you could register your free to copy, and I can have a list available in Nemesis that I send round to anyone who runs a freebie place, so that they can check the list. People could register that their items which have escaped into the wild are NOT free to copy too. 200K residents? I may need help with this...lol. Cali _____________________
Numbakulla: Pot Healer's Mystery, free to play and explore
http://caliinsecondlife.blogspot.com/ http://www.nemesis-content.com]Nemesis Content Creation _________________________________________________ The main obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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05-07-2006 03:17
I have found the whole thing very discouraging.
We like to think that most of us are reasonably ethical people, and that the laws of the land are just there to catch the occasional miscreant. I think sl has shown that this is incorrect, and that a very large proportion of people are crooks, and are only kept from theft in real life because of the penalties. Personally I have found that a very sobering and disheartening thing that second life has taught me. _____________________
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Caliandris Pendragon
Waiting in the light
Join date: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 643
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05-07-2006 03:42
I have found the whole thing very discouraging. We like to think that most of us are reasonably ethical people, and that the laws of the land are just there to catch the occasional miscreant. I think sl has shown that this is incorrect, and that a very large proportion of people are crooks, and are only kept from theft in real life because of the penalties. Personally I have found that a very sobering and disheartening thing that second life has taught me. Oh, don't be discouraged. Most people appear to me to be unaware of the rules, it is only a tiny minority who knowingly do this. Most people stop when you ask them to. I have been encouraged by that. Lots of people support honesty and fair dealing in SL. It is just that the rules seem vagye and hazy when it comes to reselling other people's stuff...and some people are too stupid to understand why it is bad. Still NOT the majority. I have great faith in the ultimate honesty of SLers. Cali _____________________
Numbakulla: Pot Healer's Mystery, free to play and explore
http://caliinsecondlife.blogspot.com/ http://www.nemesis-content.com]Nemesis Content Creation _________________________________________________ The main obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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05-07-2006 05:13
Ran into you there. Try looking in the free avatars in the 5/06 section. Moogle avs inside may be stolen (not sure). Not attacking the Junkyard owner, just have only seen moogle avs for sale..
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Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
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05-07-2006 05:25
People who do such things out of ignorance will grateful for the education and will cooperate.
What truly bothers me is the "game" attitude, which is that anything that is possible must be acceptable--that is, if the software/machinery/system does not make it impossible, it must not be against the rules of the game. I see that not only in Second Life, but everywhere nowadays, even from people who really should know better. I can understand where it comes from, but people really do need to realize that life does not work that way. Anyhow, I applaud the scambusters! Spread the word that stealing intellectual property is unethical, illegal, and not at all peachy. _____________________
--Obvious Lady
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Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
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05-07-2006 05:32
If you give people copy/transfer on an item, you are granting them permission to do things like this. The creators have nobody to blame but themselves. You don't make a gun then complain when someone shoots a person with it, and you don't give someone full-perms then bitch when they use those perms in a way you don't like.
Musuko. |
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Caliandris Pendragon
Waiting in the light
Join date: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 643
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05-07-2006 05:53
If you give people copy/transfer on an item, you are granting them permission to do things like this. The creators have nobody to blame but themselves. You don't make a gun then complain when someone shoots a person with it, and you don't give someone full-perms then bitch when they use those perms in a way you don't like. Musuko. For those creators who make items to help people make creations, like textures for example, one has no choice but to make them mod/copy/transfer...but that doesn't mean that they should be freely sold around SL! For those who make freebies like me, who want them to be shared, want people to be able to take them apart and remake them, etc, then I don't see that I should have to expressly prevent people from selling them. I would like to have an SL where it is unacceptable to sell other people's creations unless you have express permission. I think it would be a better place. Cali _____________________
Numbakulla: Pot Healer's Mystery, free to play and explore
http://caliinsecondlife.blogspot.com/ http://www.nemesis-content.com]Nemesis Content Creation _________________________________________________ The main obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
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05-07-2006 05:57
"For those creators who make items to help people make creations, like textures for example, one has no choice but to make them mod/copy/transfer...but that doesn't mean that they should be freely sold around SL!"
They should add a "do not resell this item" request into the description line. However, the purchasers have no obligation to obey that. "I would like to have an SL where it is unacceptable to sell other people's creations unless you have express permission." Granting somebody transfer permission IS express permission to sell it! How are you not understanding this? Transfer permission gives a person the EXPRESS RIGHT to GIVE AWAY OR SELL the item. If you do not want people to do this, do not grant them that permission. If you DO grant them that permission, you ARE giving tehm the express permission to sell it. Understand? Jeeze. Musuko. |
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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05-07-2006 06:19
If you give people copy/transfer on an item, you are granting them permission to do things like this. The creators have nobody to blame but themselves. You don't make a gun then complain when someone shoots a person with it, and you don't give someone full-perms then bitch when they use those perms in a way you don't like. Musuko. No, not in RL either. To use the much quoted example. If I buy a music CD I CAN rip it, burn it, and give it to my friends. It's still theft. If I sell it, eventually odds are good I will be arrested. Full perm freebies are distributed with the idea, unless explicitly stated otherwise of people using them for PERSONAL use, like learning - or to help new people get a leg up. By your argument any original digital image on the internet is free game. The law doesn't agree with you. What SL needs is a more flexible permission system which gives a No Resale option seperate from the No Trans option. _____________________
Surreal
Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004 Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43) |
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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05-07-2006 06:20
Granting somebody transfer permission IS express permission to sell it! How are you not understanding this? Transfer permission gives a person the EXPRESS RIGHT to GIVE AWAY OR SELL the item. If you do not want people to do this, do not grant them that permission. If you DO grant them that permission, you ARE giving tehm the express permission to sell it.Musuko. People don't understand because you're statement isn't true under U.S. and International digital copyright treaties and laws. _____________________
Surreal
Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004 Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43) |
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Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
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05-07-2006 06:42
"No, not in RL either. To use the much quoted example. If I buy a music CD I CAN rip it, burn it, and give it to my friends. It's still theft. If I sell it, eventually odds are good I will be arrested."
Yes, because when you purchase a music CD, FULL COPYRIGHT PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO YOU. It is ONLY given if the creator tells you (either directly to you, or via a label on the CD) that you "may freely copy and distribute this recording for private or commercial use". And THAT is identical to selling an item in second life with Copy and Transfer ticked. "Full perm freebies are distributed with the idea, unless explicitly stated otherwise of people using them for PERSONAL use, like learning - or to help new people get a leg up." No they are not. There is nothing in the system that states that. You just THINK that's what it means. All it does mean is that, with transfer enabled, you have the right to sell or give away that item. Nothing is stated about HOW you can and cannot do that. "People don't understand because you're statement isn't true under U.S. and International digital copyright treaties and laws." Copyright law states that you are not allowed to copy something unless the copyright holder (usually the creator) gives you permission to. In SL, the PERMISSIONS system has COPY. The CREATOR granting the COPY PERMISSION gives the second owner the RIGHT to COPY it. And if this PERMISSION is given in conjunction with the right to give it away or sell it, then you can do exactly what you are all complaining about WITH THE PERMISSION OF THE CREATOR. My statement IS true under U.S and international digital copyright treaties and laws. If you grant somebody the unrestricted right to copy an item, which ticking the copy permission box without adding additional documentation detailing specific restrictions, does, then you are granting them the right to copy it...copyright. Isn't it obvious? If you need something more flexible, such as "you have the right to copy this, but not to use it in any commercial sense", then I suggest you start using Creative Commons licence declarations on your products. "By your argument any original digital image on the internet is free game. The law doesn't agree with you." Any digital image isn't free game, and the law does agree with me. Images aren't free game, UNLESS you state that anybody can copy it without restriction (which is what ticking the copy box on SL permissions grants and allows), in which case it IS free game, as you have granted copyright to that second owner. "What SL needs is a more flexible permission system which gives a No Resale option seperate from the No Trans option." Yes, it does. I still don't believe that you people aren't understanding how SL permissions work, and what they're for. If you don't want people reselling your items, untick the transfer box. That's what they put it there for! Musuko. |
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Starax Statosky
Unregistered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,099
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05-07-2006 07:01
Cali, Surreal. Alot of people don't agree with copyright laws. Some people see the laws as a scam.
If I created a machine that could create oil out of nothing. Would I be right to keep on selling that oil long after I had recovered my initial costs for building the machine? Do you think the US government would respect my rights? Really? No, really? |
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stpaulsub Clio
Fear the Bubblegum Gurl!
Join date: 2 Sep 2004
Posts: 607
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05-07-2006 07:04
"No, not in RL either. To use the much quoted example. If I buy a music CD I CAN rip it, burn it, and give it to my friends. It's still theft. If I sell it, eventually odds are good I will be arrested." Yes, because when you purchase a music CD, FULL COPYRIGHT PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO YOU. It is ONLY given if the creator tells you (either directly to you, or via a label on the CD) that you "may freely copy and distribute this recording for private or commercial use". And THAT is identical to selling an item in second life with Copy and Transfer ticked. "Full perm freebies are distributed with the idea, unless explicitly stated otherwise of people using them for PERSONAL use, like learning - or to help new people get a leg up." No they are not. There is nothing in the system that states that. You just THINK that's what it means. All it does mean is that, with transfer enabled, you have the right to sell or give away that item. Nothing is stated about HOW you can and cannot do that. "People don't understand because you're statement isn't true under U.S. and International digital copyright treaties and laws." Copyright law states that you are not allowed to copy something unless the copyright holder (usually the creator) gives you permission to. In SL, the PERMISSIONS system has COPY. The CREATOR granting the COPY PERMISSION gives the second owner the RIGHT to COPY it. And if this PERMISSION is given in conjunction with the right to give it away or sell it, then you can do exactly what you are all complaining about WITH THE PERMISSION OF THE CREATOR. My statement IS true under U.S and international digital copyright treaties and laws. If you grant somebody the unrestricted right to copy an item, which ticking the copy permission box without adding additional documentation detailing specific restrictions, does, then you are granting them the right to copy it...copyright. Isn't it obvious? If you need something more flexible, such as "you have the right to copy this, but not to use it in any commercial sense", then I suggest you start using Creative Commons licence declarations on your products. "By your argument any original digital image on the internet is free game. The law doesn't agree with you." Any digital image isn't free game, and the law does agree with me. Images aren't free game, UNLESS you state that anybody can copy it without restriction (which is what ticking the copy box on SL permissions grants and allows), in which case it IS free game, as you have granted copyright to that second owner. "What SL needs is a more flexible permission system which gives a No Resale option seperate from the No Trans option." Yes, it does. I still don't believe that you people aren't understanding how SL permissions work, and what they're for. If you don't want people reselling your items, untick the transfer box. That's what they put it there for! Musuko. Well if you truely wish to be specific about what the box says, Transfer is not the same as Sell, there is no exspressed permission to Sell only to Transfer. So, it comes down to Ethics, do you belive it is ok to make a profit from unsuspecting newbies by selling others work? Or, do you think that a creators wishes be honored? To me it is a simple thing, Right vs Wrong _____________________
David Valentino: I think I just like to play with the balls |
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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05-07-2006 07:14
Cali, Surreal. Alot of people don't agree with copyright laws. Some people see the laws as a scam. If I created a machine that could create oil out of nothing. Would I be right to keep on selling that oil long after I had recovered my initial costs for building the machine? Do you think the US government would respect my rights? Really? No, really? You can argue that a book comes to the writer out of nothing. We don't pay just for the intitial costs, we pay for the genius to come up with something, the skills or education, and the time time to create it. Now I do disagree with what is happening to copyright laws in the US. Corporations buying up rights to everything that moves, then lobbying to extend those exclusive rights far into the future. The original copyright laws were designed to benefit the creator and their immediate heirs for a limited time, then benefit the community by becoming public domain. _____________________
Surreal
Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004 Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43) |
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Becky Tardis
Registered User
Join date: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 98
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05-07-2006 08:20
For the credit of the Junkyard owner he has big signs that say if you see something that shouldnt be here, contact him.
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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05-07-2006 08:23
Thats the thing. I don't know -if- they are freebies or stolen.
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stpaulsub Clio
Fear the Bubblegum Gurl!
Join date: 2 Sep 2004
Posts: 607
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05-07-2006 08:39
Thats the thing. I don't know -if- they are freebies or stolen. well many freebies say so in the discription so a simple look will tell you _____________________
David Valentino: I think I just like to play with the balls |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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05-07-2006 08:41
Good point. Ill make sure to IM the creator.
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Osprey Therian
I want capslocklock
Join date: 6 Jul 2004
Posts: 5,049
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05-07-2006 09:42
We like to think that most of us are reasonably ethical people, and that the laws of the land are just there to catch the occasional miscreant. I think sl has shown that this is incorrect, and that a very large proportion of people are crooks, and are only kept from theft in real life because of the penalties. I think that the negative effect of one unscrupulous person's actions weighs very heavily - and that the proportion of unethical people seems larger than it is because of that. _____________________
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Osprey Therian
I want capslocklock
Join date: 6 Jul 2004
Posts: 5,049
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05-07-2006 09:48
I was in a place the other day that had very nice furniture made by the store owner, who ALSO had things like that rug we all have in our libraries - set for sale. My head exploded and I rezzed 500 copies of the rug whilst shrieking - only to have 500 rugs go into my lost and found.
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Ilianexsi Sojourner
Chick with Horns
Join date: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,707
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05-07-2006 09:50
For the credit of the Junkyard owner he has big signs that say if you see something that shouldnt be here, contact him. Exactly. People drop stuff to him constantly, and I really doubt he has the time to follow up on every item to make sure it's okay to give away; if you see something there that shouldn't be given away, I'd let him know, or have the original crators do so, and the item in question will probably be removed. _____________________
Everything's impossible,'till it ain't. --Ben Hawkins, Carnivale
Help build a Utopian Playland-- www.doctorsteel.com. Music, robots, fun times! |
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Yiffy Yaffle
Purple SpiritWolf Mystic
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,802
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05-07-2006 11:05
Was i right by doing this? Reporting it that is.
 I blacked out the name and locations on this snapshot to keep from violating that naming names rule, but the lindens have the real one.   _____________________
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Darkness Anubis
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,628
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05-07-2006 11:33
Was i right by doing this? Reporting it that is. I blacked out the name and locations on this snapshot to keep from violating that naming names rule, but the lindens have the real one. The fairytale slotmachine I know is a Linden Freebie so yeah I would say you were very right to do this. _____________________
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Calista Amarula
Registered User
Join date: 23 Jul 2005
Posts: 28
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05-07-2006 12:05
Well if you truely wish to be specific about what the box says, Transfer is not the same as Sell, there is no exspressed permission to Sell only to Transfer. So, it comes down to Ethics, do you belive it is ok to make a profit from unsuspecting newbies by selling others work? Or, do you think that a creators wishes be honored? To me it is a simple thing, Right vs Wrong Well if you truely wish to be specific about what the box says, just look at it. It says: "Resell/giveaway" Notice the word "Resell" Checking the box is saying "you can sell this if you like" |
