Temp-rezzing to circumvent prim limits on your land
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Mystical Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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05-10-2006 09:53
Hello everyone. I will most likely be very hated for posting this, but someone needs to do it.  I have seen two products spring up on SL Exchange designed to temp rez objects in order to circumvent land prim limits. I have written my own such temp rezzer and used it for a few days on my own land. I was temp rezzing about 12 objects, for a total of 70 prims in a normal sim. By normal sim, I mean most of the land is owned and regularly used by it's residents. I found that, with every de-rez and re-rez, sim dilation dropped by 0.01-0.03 and sim fps dropped by 1-2 fps. Here is some of what I wrote in the discussion pages of the products I found on SL Exchange: From: someone I have written my own "temp rezzer" recently. For a few days, I was temp rezzing one 30 prim home, along with very basic (6-12 prim) furniture, flowers outside (3-4 prims), etc. In total, about 10 or so objects which all fit on 512 land as non-temprez, with prims to spare. I gained about 70 prims by doing this. It was not long before other residents in the sim began to ask me for a copy of my script so they could temp rez things on their own land. However, I did notice a minor hit to sim performance. For every de-rez and re-rez, time dilation dropped by about 0.01-0.03 and sim fps dropped by 1-2. Not very noticable impact, but I was temp rezzing only a few low-prim objects. Now imagine a few people in the same sim temp rezzing thousands of prims. It will be noticed. In fact, now that I have said that, I have noticed my sim grinding to a near halt every minute or so lately. I wonder if someone is temp rezzing some high-prim monstrosity. Oh, then there is the issue of scripts being disabled grid-wide, as was done about one month ago during a replication grid attack. Anything being temp-rezzed would simply disappear. How strange would it be to have only your seats and sex toys (things that you should not temp-rez since you need to sit on them) rezzed if scripts are unexpectedly disabled in your sim? Also keep in mind, my version was much, much simpler. I needed to add an llRezAtRoot line to my script everytime i wanted to add an object. My script literally just used a timer with multiple llRezAtRoot lines and one llSay to remotely kill temp-rezzed objects. A product like this would need more script code to make it easier to use by the average customer. This is really a wonderful idea, and it was great while I was using it. I respect your work that has gone into making this a product usable by the average customer. But I don't think it is something everyone should be using at all times due to sim performance issues. I just do not want to see sims lagged by people temp rezzing their 2,000 prim mansions plus 4,000 prims worth of furniture. The average customer knows nothing of sim performance or script efficiency. And if they did, they most likely would not care. As I said above, one person temp rezzing 100, or maybe even 200 prims may not impact sim performance very much. But a few residents, unaware of how things work and temp rezzing thousands of prims every 60 seconds in the same sim.. could be an issue. There is no real "solution" to this problem. Temp rezzing is used in everything from holo vendors to weapons. I can only hope that residents are aware of the resources they are using with these temp-rezzing products and care enough for their fellow residents to either not temp-rez your things, or use temp-rezzing very, very sparingly. |
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Mystical Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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05-10-2006 10:08
In order to reduce the amount of hateful responses that will inevitably follow, I will say that I am sure both products do exactly what they advertise. Just.. please, do not temp-rez your entire estates with them. |
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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05-10-2006 10:19
Speaking as someone who has a fairly miserable fps rating already, (1 to 4 fps) if my performance dropped by "1-2 fps" because of someone's temp-on-rez items, I'd barely be able to move! Temp-on-rez is a very bad idea, from my point of view.
Please, be considerate of others using the sim. We don't all have high-end systems with powerful, expensive video cards!
Temp-on-rez is a great way to briefly display something, without dragging down the parcel's prim count. For example, when used for a holo-vendor to display complex items. But they should not be used to permenantly circumvent prim count limits, by perpetually re-spawning things. Please!
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Ewan Took
Mad Hairy Scotsman
Join date: 5 Dec 2004
Posts: 579
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05-10-2006 10:24
I didn't know you can do this so I'm off to SLexchange to check it out. I'll only use it when I'm online though.
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nimrod Yaffle
Cavemen are people too...
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,146
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05-10-2006 10:25
From: Ewan Took I'll only use it when I'm online though. Mmmm hmmm.  (If you click the marketplace button at the top, you'll se a few different ones that are popular.)
_____________________
"People can cry much easier than they can change."
-James Baldwin
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Mystical Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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05-10-2006 10:27
Using temp rezzing reasonably, for only a few objects should not cause sim performance to degrade, from what I have seen. It certainly should not affect a person's client-side fps. I have tested pistols (almost all use temp-rezzing bullets) which cause far more sim performance degradation than any of these temp rezzing products could ever hope to. These temp rezzing products are not bad, in my opinion. It is the potential for abuse that concerns me. But both product authors have assured me (publically, on their product discussion pages) that the rezzers are written in such a way to discourage temp rezzing thousands of prims, which was my main concern. |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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05-10-2006 10:28
Temp on rez primitives are supposed to be used to create temporary effects. They are not supposed to be used to create objects that are rezzed over and over again to become effectively permanent, no matter how many prims are involved. Remember that the real prim limit is on the server, and that can't be circumvented by any means - the server simply can't host more prims than it's capable of hosting. Even prim that you use, someone else can't. If you use tricks like this, you aren't "circumventing prim limits on your land" - you're circumventing the "fair shares" rule for how the overall limit should be divided. Please don't do that. |
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Gaius Goodliffe
Dreamsmith
Join date: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 116
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05-10-2006 10:59
From: Mystical Cookie things that you should not temp-rez since you need to sit on them Seems to work fine for me. Whatever it is simply doesn't disappear as long as you're sitting on it. My demo maker temp-rezzes a vehicle for people to fly around, and that seems to work fine too. And it makes getting rid of them easy for times people rez the vehicle but never get in. (I know I could do that with a timer, but temp-rez works just as well.) From: Yumi Murakami Remember that the real prim limit is on the server, and that can't be circumvented by any means - the server simply can't host more prims than it's capable of hosting. Even prim that you use, someone else can't. I highly suspect the actual prim limit on a sim is higher than the imposed build limit of 15000. (I'd guess 16384 at minimum, and I'd be willing to bet it's at least two or four times more than that, assuming it's not simply limited by available memory.) So you'd have to temp-rez quite a bit before you actually start denying other users their prims. It does, however, potentially deny them some tempory prims, but that's only an issue if they're doing the same trick as you... |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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05-10-2006 11:05
From: Gaius Goodliffe I highly suspect the actual prim limit on a sim is higher than the imposed build limit of 15000. (I'd guess 16384 at minimum, and I'd be willing to bet it's at least two or four times more than that, assuming it's not simply limited by available memory.) So you'd have to temp-rez quite a bit before you actually start denying other users their prims. It does, however, potentially deny them some tempory prims, but that's only an issue if they're doing the same trick as you... You are right that there are prims above the build limit, but they're used for avatars, vehicles, etc. as well as temp-on-rez. Temp-on-rez to "circumvent" limits fails a key test: if you can use it, why shouldn't everyone? Oh.. because if everyone uses it, it doesn't work. |
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Yiffy Yaffle
Purple SpiritWolf Mystic
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,802
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05-10-2006 11:07
Based on this information i would not advise using these things on a reguler basis. Infact if this information is true, then its also very helpful for griefers that crash the grid. From what i have been told, temp on rez prims do not show up in the ABOUT LAND dialog like normal prims. So you would have to hunt them down yourself.
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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05-10-2006 11:26
Temp on rez is't really a tool for griefers, imo. The whole of thier purposes is to overload the grid. A simple shutdown of scripts would erase that load in 60-120secs (average times for derezzing).
I've played with this a bit and found that the Time Dialation, FPS, and Bandwidth are not affected until 1000's of prims are rezzed. TD only drops by .01-.02 at that point (as the OP mentioned). I had no concrete loss of FPS even at the high rezzes. A small 1-2 fluctuation was noticed, but that occurs in a normal environment as well.
Bandwidth did suffer with extreme numbers of TempOnRez prims in view, but I feel this is more a clientside issue than a server issue. Naturally, one should make sure this system isn't killing the people passing by and ruining thier enjoyment of the world.
Other than that, I don't see a problem. Yes, I use this system. My firends and I have also contacted LL about this to see if it's "legal". They stated that there was no problem with using TempOnRez in this mannor. Though, reiterating it once more, I do believe they meant as long as the system is used in a responsible mannor.
The ABOUT LAND does not show the TEmpOnRez items, but it does show whatever prim is rezzing the items. The TOR's will be derezzed in 60120 seconds anyway, so there's no need to find them.
So basically, make sure you don't have any clientside issues, talk to your neighbors to make sure you don't lag them, and that's about it. Basically be curtious and respectful of those in your area and you won't have any problems ^.^
~Jessy
P.S. For the tech-heads out there that want to do the math and stuff, I'm running on an AMD Athlon 1.47GHz, 512MB SyncDRAM, a GeForce 5500oc, and on a cable modem.
For the non-tech-heads; My system is old and sucks!!! lol
_____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid: From: Aldo Stern Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do.
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Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
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05-10-2006 11:48
I am surprised that the Lindens haven't said anything about this yet as technically it could be considered an exploit, which would make it a ToS violation.
I've thought about making one myself, but decided against it for the above mentioned reason. So if you use these, be very careful how you do it or you just might find yourself on the police blotter.
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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05-10-2006 11:58
The tragedy of the commons.
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Lex Neva
wears dorky glasses
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,361
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05-10-2006 12:23
From: Gaius Goodliffe I highly suspect the actual prim limit on a sim is higher than the imposed build limit of 15000. (I'd guess 16384 at minimum, and I'd be willing to bet it's at least two or four times more than that, assuming it's not simply limited by available memory.) So you'd have to temp-rez quite a bit before you actually start denying other users their prims. It does, however, potentially deny them some tempory prims, but that's only an issue if they're doing the same trick as you... Uh, out of curiosity, where'd you get those numbers? I think the sim prim limits are for performance reasons. |
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Mystical Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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05-10-2006 12:27
One of my earlier tests with temp rezzing included writing a script which rezzes 300 0.3m3 plywood cubes. Three linked objects with 100 cubes each. I have re-run the script, just to be sure. My results are not good. In a fairly empty sim (no agents) with no obvious laggy scripts, stable time dilation, and stable sim fps, my script drops the time dilation by up to 0.20 and sim fps by up to 8 fps. It does not always drop so severely. Occasionally, time dilation drops by only 0.02 and sim fps by 2. But the performance hit is there, with only 300 prims. Temp rezzing 1000 prims dropped time dilation down to 0.56, and the subsequent llDie of those prims dropped time dilation to 0.83. I would be happy to give anyone an in-world demonstration if we are both online at the same time. |
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Mystical Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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05-10-2006 12:41
It may be worth noting that the performance hit is only at the time of rezzing. I am thinking maybe 0.5 seconds? But doing this every 60 seconds may be more noticable than say.. rezzing something once from your inventory for permanent placement. Especially with multiple residents doing the same. Sim performance could potentially be affected every 30 or 15 seconds if enough residents are temp-rezzing on a timer. So please, if you must use something like this, do not use it for more than one hundred prims. Your neighbors will thank you. Well, maybe they won't. But they should. |
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Les White
sombish
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 163
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05-10-2006 13:08
Wrong. Bad. Greedy. Lame.
If you are using a rezzer to rerez temp items every 90 seconds or so to exceed your prim limit then you are leeching sim performance from others who have paid for it.
/me slaps your hand
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Mystical Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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05-10-2006 13:15
Ideally, no one should be doing this. But, the products are out there now, and not just one, but two. And this does not consider those who have written their own temp rezzers. I have personally discarded this practice a long time ago once I saw it's effect on sim performance, but some residents absolutely must have their prims. So, I believe the best we can do is simply inform those who will use this to please be considerate of those whom they are sharing sim resources with. |
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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05-10-2006 13:20
*sighs*
1) It doesn't leech off sim performance. The lag (if any) is all clientside. ie your computer is the one that can't handle it, not the sim server.
2) This use has been asked of, and cleared by LL. So it's not illegal.
3) I have never seen a drop in TD more than .03 using this, tested up to 5000 prims (linked 200). So if you get higher TD loss, I suggest checking to see what's wrong with your system at home, because it isn't the sim server, or the actions there.
4) If my neighbors would ever have a problem with it, I'd remove what I have. We're on good terms and I'm up agaisnt a simline which lag doesn't travel across anyway.
As I said, using it responsibly is common sense, but data here is not being fully tested. What affects one clientside, might not affect another.
~Jessy
_____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid: From: Aldo Stern Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do.
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Mystical Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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05-10-2006 13:36
Time dilation is a number reported by the server. It is a simulator statistic, not a client-side number. Also, there are different classes of servers. It may be possible the server I chose to run my test on is of an older class. |
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Mystical Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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05-10-2006 13:42
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Les White
sombish
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 163
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05-10-2006 13:46
ah, i see. So we can all have free prims that don't effect server load. Someone else somewhere will pay for it. np. Makes perfect sense. If my sim is full of people rezzing double prims and my machine slows. It's my computers fault. Right. Got it now /goes to sell half his land to some sucker who will cover my free bonus prims. i don't believe LL would say that it's exceptable to furnish your house with rerezzing temp stuff. It's just silly. Anyone have a link to a quote? Any Lindy's wanna speak up? me? i'ma make my 1000 prim house an attachment. Then i can sit me and my mansion on my 512 in style. My picket fence will be 1000 temp on rez prims. I should be able to rez them one picket at a time and keep it up. What? what's the problem? It's ok!! I'm sure the land prim limits you get when buying are just a "guide line" that we can freely circumvent as long as we do it responsibly. hmm, who decides what is responsible, could it be LL with the land prim limits? na, I'm sure they leave that up to the land oweners to decide. Anyway. this is a silly argument. back to productive things me. |
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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05-10-2006 14:11
Yup.
Maybe we could discuss lag created by malls and casinos, or items with heavy scripts, or.....
Or we can simply go on as we are.
I did say that your neighbors (and that includes all in the sim since you share the server) need to be nice and respect each other. If common curtosy fails, then LL intervention needs to be broguht in.
Some of us are able to be adults and come to good terms on our own.
And no, I don't have a link for you. Sorry. It was asked inworld. *shrugs* If ya don't beleive me, ya don't. If LL changes thier mind and tells me to take it down I do.
And I realise where TD loss is, and no, I don't think full lag like that is the fault of the person who has a low end system. Mine's low end after all. I stated lag and TD in seperate lines because they are sperate. The mention to fix your PC if your TD was higher was an honest line of correcting a problem. I was mearly pointing out that if you have loss that high, your system might have a fixable problem. Such as drivers needing updating.
The 5000-prim test was just that, a test to check load performance. I felt a 10X+ perfomance test adiquate. How many will find a use for 25 200-prim items?
Mine is used more to enable me to have free prims to rez other things temporarily. If you build to your max, you cna't build on you land *shrugs*
Now, if you want to rant, go ahead. I think you may get further in discussions with a little thought and politeness (as the OP is doing) than simple unthinking sarcasm.
~Jessy
_____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid: From: Aldo Stern Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do.
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Rickard Roentgen
Renaissance Punk
Join date: 4 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,869
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05-10-2006 23:29
if rezzing an object is causing the sim time dialation to tank that badly it's either because you are overlapping the previous temp-on-rez object (already known to kill sims occasionally) or because there's a bug in which case use the bug reporting system. Sure it's a black hole, but it's your imaginating, your black hole . |
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Laurine Witte
Registered User
Join date: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 14
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05-11-2006 00:29
My suggestion would be to only use the temp-rez script when avatars are within your property limit...
IE, have a scan run every 10-20 seconds for avatars in your land-range...once it detects an avatar, it activates the temp-rez scripts, scanning every 45-60 seconds for avatars to leave. Once no avatars are in range, it deactivates the temp-rez scripts, and begins scanning again every 10-20 seconds.
While it does create lag through the constant scans, this is mitigated through the time delays (10-20 seconds for empty land, 45-60 seconds for land assumed to be occupied) and only loads prims when land is assumed occupied.
This solution has been in my head for a couple weeks, but I haven't had a reason to impliment and test it yet...and my scripting/building experience is minimal...so I'm looking forward to opinions on it.
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