Second Life Forums Archive - SL Humanism (New Group)

Aimee Weber

The one on the right

Join date: 30 Jan 2004

Posts: 4,286

01-25-2006 16:47

From: Aliasi Stonebender

Only to a point. To paraphrase Cory Doctorow, "the rich bastard is in for a world of hurt when bad times fall; the poor but nice person never goes totally hungry."

Although a less succinct version is Robert Heinlein's "This I Believe", but the general thrust is the same - society would not hold together if the vast, vast majority weren't fairly "moral". But it's bad news that gets around - the fact that millions of schoolchildren have never shot their classmates, and wouldn't even consider it is shadowed by the handful that have. The many who'd never steal anything but second base go unnoticed, but the person who'll break into your car to steal your radio you'll remember for quite a while.

I agree that society does worse with the greater number of immoral people, yet I think immorality has proven, on an individual basis, to be profitable for many. Also, you're suggesting a Darwinistic test for morality, that is "the ideas that work well enough to stick around are morally correct." I submit that some codes of morality have died out at the hands of other forms of morality by way of some rather immoral bloodshed.

But this is a bit of an aside. What I am trying to say is that the very idea that "bringing progress and welfare of all human beings is the greatest good" is an ideal that came from other humans and as such is no better than any other form of morality. If a PITA activist believes humans are a scourge against nature and wishes to release a human-killing virus to free the earth of our tyranny, his morality holds about the same amount of water as the humanists (though it would obviously fail the Darwin test

)

_____________________

Taco Rubio

also quite creepy

Join date: 15 Feb 2004

Posts: 3,349

01-25-2006 16:52

From: Aimee Weber

...If a PITA activist believes humans are a scourge against nature and wishes to release a human-killing virus to free the earth of our tyranny, his morality holds about the same amount of water as the humanists (though it would obviously fail the Darwin test

)

If it comes in Tahini sauce, it was worth the death.

_____________________

From: Torley Linden

We can't be clear enough, ever, in our communication.

Aimee Weber

The one on the right

Join date: 30 Jan 2004

Posts: 4,286

01-25-2006 16:55

From: Taco Rubio

If it comes in Tahini sauce, it was worth the death.

If it didn't come in crazy delicious Tahini sauce, it would HARDLY be moral...now WOULD it?!

_____________________

Rickard Roentgen

Renaissance Punk

Join date: 4 Apr 2004

Posts: 1,869

01-25-2006 17:05

well I probably qualify as a humanist, but why do I need a group?

_____________________

Newfie Pendragon

Crusty and proud of it

Join date: 19 Dec 2003

Posts: 1,025

01-25-2006 17:25

Times like this I'm glad I'm agnostic

- Newfie

_____________________

Aliasi Stonebender

Return of Catbread

Join date: 30 Jan 2005

Posts: 1,858

01-25-2006 17:54

From: Aimee Weber

I agree that society does worse with the greater number of immoral people, yet I think immorality has proven, on an individual basis, to be profitable for many. Also, you're suggesting a Darwinistic test for morality, that is "the ideas that work well enough to stick around are morally correct." I submit that some codes of morality have died out at the hands of other forms of morality by way of some rather immoral bloodshed.

But this is a bit of an aside. What I am trying to say is that the very idea that "bringing progress and welfare of all human beings is the greatest good" is an ideal that came from other humans and as such is no better than any other form of morality. If a PITA activist believes humans are a scourge against nature and wishes to release a human-killing virus to free the earth of our tyranny, his morality holds about the same amount of water as the humanists (though it would obviously fail the Darwin test

)

Survival is the only yardstick worth a damn. Any other yardstick, your moral system is bound to die out.

_____________________

Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff

Aimee Weber

The one on the right

Join date: 30 Jan 2004

Posts: 4,286

01-25-2006 18:26

From: Aliasi Stonebender

Survival is the only yardstick worth a damn. Any other yardstick, your moral system is bound to die out.

And yet, the potential longevity of a moral code does nothing to entice me to follow it, nor would the impending DOOM of a moral code convince me to abandon it.

By the way, I just wanna take this moment to say I LOVE your forum icon! I have been nearly hypnotized by it this past week

_____________________

Torin Golding

Misanthropic Humanist

Join date: 13 Sep 2005

Posts: 41

wow

01-25-2006 19:54

So i post this late last night and I finally log in today and there are three pages worth of responses. Since my posts are usually only frantic queries on the scripting tips page asking why my stuff doesn't work the way I want it to, I'll take that as a good sign

Or else a sign that SL was down for a good chunk of today and people had a lot of down time to spend, hehe.

Thanks for the 'mainly' positive responses. Feel free to say hi if you see me in world everyone, and for those of you who have been inclined to join, we'll have a get-together soon.

TG

Aliasi Stonebender

Return of Catbread

Join date: 30 Jan 2005

Posts: 1,858

01-25-2006 20:04

From: Aimee Weber

And yet, the potential longevity of a moral code does nothing to entice me to follow it, nor would the impending DOOM of a moral code convince me to abandon it.

But your potential longevity certainly would, would it not? Again: if you're remembered as a nice person, other people tend to reciprocate when the chips are down. If you're remembered as a bastard, they'll give you a nice kick to the midsection while you're going begging.

Again: people survive better by being nice than by being nasty; I'll have to dig to get citations and such, but actual social scientist-types have conducted actual studies to figure that out. This is not to say there are no individual instances of evil bastards prospering with nothing coming against them... but then, people win the lottery and get struck by lightning and all sorts of other improbable things; you can only speak of the tendancies in the mass.

Therefore (to drag this back to the original topic), following a humanistic philosophy makes sense in that it is a further development of this; rather than do things because you are being told they are good in some abstract manner (or even in pure self-interest - "do this and you get to go to paradise when you die, don't do this or you'll burn eternally"

you do
them because they're good for you!

Also, thankee on the icon; I find the damndest things online.

_____________________

Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff

Bertha Horton

Fat w/ Ice Cream

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 835

01-25-2006 20:56

Nice idea for a group. Will the Humanists allow furries?

_____________________

Trapped in a world she never made!

Aimee Weber

The one on the right

Join date: 30 Jan 2004

Posts: 4,286

01-25-2006 20:57

From: Bertha Horton

Nice idea for a group. Will the Humanists allow furries?

You may want to ask around for confirmation, but I am pretty sure they EAT furries.

_____________________

Rickard Roentgen

Renaissance Punk

Join date: 4 Apr 2004

Posts: 1,869

01-25-2006 22:46

yep, humanist

they're like the antifurry.

_____________________

Talon Lardner

Mouse by night

Join date: 5 Oct 2005

Posts: 141

01-26-2006 08:53

From: Rickard Roentgen

yep, humanist

they're like the antifurry.

That's it, I'm forming the Ratist club! It'll be a club for those who feel that the only thing we should strive for in life... is the cheeze. Collecting Shineys is also a plus, no matter how unuseful they are as well.

But seriously, though, Humanism seems pretty interesting, but I don't think it is for me, since I tend to be a generic theist (athough the role in our lives is limited).

_____________________

http://talonlardner.blogspot.com/
Talon's random SnapZilla stuff
GASP! another profile site to put my mug on!

Blueman Steele

Registered User

Join date: 28 Dec 2004

Posts: 1,038

01-26-2006 09:29

From: Lewis Nerd

It's putting man in God's place.

Lewis

And is that bad? What about woman?

SL Humanism (New Group)
Aimee Weber The one on the right Join date: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 4,286	01-25-2006 16:47 From: Aliasi Stonebender Only to a point. To paraphrase Cory Doctorow, "the rich bastard is in for a world of hurt when bad times fall; the poor but nice person never goes totally hungry." Although a less succinct version is Robert Heinlein's "This I Believe", but the general thrust is the same - society would not hold together if the vast, vast majority weren't fairly "moral". But it's bad news that gets around - the fact that millions of schoolchildren have never shot their classmates, and wouldn't even consider it is shadowed by the handful that have. The many who'd never steal anything but second base go unnoticed, but the person who'll break into your car to steal your radio you'll remember for quite a while. I agree that society does worse with the greater number of immoral people, yet I think immorality has proven, on an individual basis, to be profitable for many. Also, you're suggesting a Darwinistic test for morality, that is "the ideas that work well enough to stick around are morally correct." I submit that some codes of morality have died out at the hands of other forms of morality by way of some rather immoral bloodshed. But this is a bit of an aside. What I am trying to say is that the very idea that "bringing progress and welfare of all human beings is the greatest good" is an ideal that came from other humans and as such is no better than any other form of morality. If a PITA activist believes humans are a scourge against nature and wishes to release a human-killing virus to free the earth of our tyranny, his morality holds about the same amount of water as the humanists (though it would obviously fail the Darwin test ) _____________________
Taco Rubio also quite creepy Join date: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 3,349	01-25-2006 16:52 From: Aimee Weber ...If a PITA activist believes humans are a scourge against nature and wishes to release a human-killing virus to free the earth of our tyranny, his morality holds about the same amount of water as the humanists (though it would obviously fail the Darwin test ) If it comes in Tahini sauce, it was worth the death. _____________________ From: Torley Linden We can't be clear enough, ever, in our communication.
Aimee Weber The one on the right Join date: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 4,286	01-25-2006 16:55 From: Taco Rubio If it comes in Tahini sauce, it was worth the death. If it didn't come in crazy delicious Tahini sauce, it would HARDLY be moral...now WOULD it?! _____________________
Rickard Roentgen Renaissance Punk Join date: 4 Apr 2004 Posts: 1,869	01-25-2006 17:05 well I probably qualify as a humanist, but why do I need a group? _____________________
Newfie Pendragon Crusty and proud of it Join date: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,025	01-25-2006 17:25 Times like this I'm glad I'm agnostic - Newfie _____________________
Aliasi Stonebender Return of Catbread Join date: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1,858	01-25-2006 17:54 From: Aimee Weber I agree that society does worse with the greater number of immoral people, yet I think immorality has proven, on an individual basis, to be profitable for many. Also, you're suggesting a Darwinistic test for morality, that is "the ideas that work well enough to stick around are morally correct." I submit that some codes of morality have died out at the hands of other forms of morality by way of some rather immoral bloodshed. But this is a bit of an aside. What I am trying to say is that the very idea that "bringing progress and welfare of all human beings is the greatest good" is an ideal that came from other humans and as such is no better than any other form of morality. If a PITA activist believes humans are a scourge against nature and wishes to release a human-killing virus to free the earth of our tyranny, his morality holds about the same amount of water as the humanists (though it would obviously fail the Darwin test ) Survival is the only yardstick worth a damn. Any other yardstick, your moral system is bound to die out. _____________________ Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?” Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Aimee Weber The one on the right Join date: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 4,286	01-25-2006 18:26 From: Aliasi Stonebender Survival is the only yardstick worth a damn. Any other yardstick, your moral system is bound to die out. And yet, the potential longevity of a moral code does nothing to entice me to follow it, nor would the impending DOOM of a moral code convince me to abandon it. By the way, I just wanna take this moment to say I LOVE your forum icon! I have been nearly hypnotized by it this past week _____________________
Torin Golding Misanthropic Humanist Join date: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 41	wow 01-25-2006 19:54 So i post this late last night and I finally log in today and there are three pages worth of responses. Since my posts are usually only frantic queries on the scripting tips page asking why my stuff doesn't work the way I want it to, I'll take that as a good sign Or else a sign that SL was down for a good chunk of today and people had a lot of down time to spend, hehe. Thanks for the 'mainly' positive responses. Feel free to say hi if you see me in world everyone, and for those of you who have been inclined to join, we'll have a get-together soon. TG
Aliasi Stonebender Return of Catbread Join date: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1,858	01-25-2006 20:04 From: Aimee Weber And yet, the potential longevity of a moral code does nothing to entice me to follow it, nor would the impending DOOM of a moral code convince me to abandon it. But your potential longevity certainly would, would it not? Again: if you're remembered as a nice person, other people tend to reciprocate when the chips are down. If you're remembered as a bastard, they'll give you a nice kick to the midsection while you're going begging. Again: people survive better by being nice than by being nasty; I'll have to dig to get citations and such, but actual social scientist-types have conducted actual studies to figure that out. This is not to say there are no individual instances of evil bastards prospering with nothing coming against them... but then, people win the lottery and get struck by lightning and all sorts of other improbable things; you can only speak of the tendancies in the mass. Therefore (to drag this back to the original topic), following a humanistic philosophy makes sense in that it is a further development of this; rather than do things because you are being told they are good in some abstract manner (or even in pure self-interest - "do this and you get to go to paradise when you die, don't do this or you'll burn eternally" you do them because they're good for you! Also, thankee on the icon; I find the damndest things online. _____________________ Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?” Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Bertha Horton Fat w/ Ice Cream Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 835	01-25-2006 20:56 Nice idea for a group. Will the Humanists allow furries? _____________________ Trapped in a world she never made!
Aimee Weber The one on the right Join date: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 4,286	01-25-2006 20:57 From: Bertha Horton Nice idea for a group. Will the Humanists allow furries? You may want to ask around for confirmation, but I am pretty sure they EAT furries. _____________________
Rickard Roentgen Renaissance Punk Join date: 4 Apr 2004 Posts: 1,869	01-25-2006 22:46 yep, humanist they're like the antifurry. _____________________
Talon Lardner Mouse by night Join date: 5 Oct 2005 Posts: 141	01-26-2006 08:53 From: Rickard Roentgen yep, humanist they're like the antifurry. That's it, I'm forming the Ratist club! It'll be a club for those who feel that the only thing we should strive for in life... is the cheeze. Collecting Shineys is also a plus, no matter how unuseful they are as well. But seriously, though, Humanism seems pretty interesting, but I don't think it is for me, since I tend to be a generic theist (athough the role in our lives is limited). _____________________ http://talonlardner.blogspot.com/ Talon's random SnapZilla stuff GASP! another profile site to put my mug on!
Blueman Steele Registered User Join date: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 1,038	01-26-2006 09:29 From: Lewis Nerd It's putting man in God's place. Lewis And is that bad? What about woman?

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