Warning - Land Swooping on the Rise

I witnessed no less than 5 "land swooping" incidents in the past two days.

This practice is out of control and is LL is doing NOTHING about it.

One of the persons doing this, is laughing at people, who's homes he has taken for HUGE profit. He openly admits the previous owners lost their land in this notecard, which he is distributing to his victims.

========================================================

You are receiving this card due to a dispute with a land sale.

Be advised you would not have lost the land if you would have followed these simple steps.
1: befor checking the "Sell for $L" box, make sure the amount is correct.
2: befor pressing the "Continue" button (a box pops up automatically when u check the "Sell for $L" button), double check the price.

If you were intending to sell land to others, or yourself, here are a few steps that are required to keep it from public sales.
Under the "Sell for L$" check box is the "Sell to:" collom, and underneath the price should be a "anyone)".
To set the land so it sells to the intended party, do the following:
1: Press the "Set" button
2:type in the name of the party you are selling to, and hit enter
3: make sure the "anyone)" has changed to the party u wish to sell to.
4: double check your price
5:check the "Sell for $L" box
6:double check the pirce, and the party you are trying to sell to is listed under the price
7: click the "continue" button that is in the box that pops up automatically when sellign land.


***Be aware that any land you list, knowingly or not, under the public sales list, is up for public sale, to any one who is willing to buy it, for whatever the price is set for.

=========================================================


This is despicable behavior and guess what? LL will do nothing about it. They feel they have covered their ass enough with the dialog confirmations. Well I got news for all you folks at LL......not everyone is a savvy technical expert and they have NO WAY of knowing what is about to happen, despite what the dialog boxes say.

Land sales list instantly, several legitimate buyers (and swoopers) refresh the list with regularity and P2P teleportation takes mere seconds.

A few days ago, this person swooped a parcel of land (set for $1L), reset the land for sale at 1000L and teleported out. He left the poor girl in tears, having just lost her First Land while trying to put it into her group. She had no money left and no land. I bought the land from the swooper and gave it to her. I lost a thousand L, but it was a bargain when it comes to exposing this scam artist. He claims to be "educating the public" by his actions.

Here is the time/date from my transaction record:

Land Sale 1 2006-06-13 05:43:42 512 (edited victim name)
Land Sale 1000 2006-06-13 05:34:17 512 (edited swooper name)

All the education in the world will not stop people from selling land to friends for 1 dollar, because they simply do not understand that P2P and instant land listing means that you can lose your land in a heartbeat.

Also, there remains a SERIOUS BUG when joining land. If a person has a piece of land for sale and they join it to another parcel, the land will remain for sale at the price set of the smaller lot. I have seen this occur over and over again, even among the most experienced residents.

Sadly, this will not be the last swooper that springs up, because LL turns a blind eye to it.

It's a predatory exploit and reflects badly on LL and reputable land agents.

Thanks Weedy, great story and information. While I have not been the victim of this when buying, merging or contributing any of my land, I know enough from interface design that there needs to be another way, and while I had been saving this one for my magazine for SLCC I guess I'll throw it out now:

Just as there are Basic and Advanced LineX setting, Parcel Management and Estate Management should have the same modes. What we get in the dialogs now would be "Advanced". "Basic" would convert all dialogs into multi-step "Wizards" that guide the user through the options. Even something as seemingly simple as "Publish in FIND PLACES" could use a quick tutorial. For selling Land the Wizard would have the following pages (thouugh I will actually be combining most of the General Tab options into on wizard that wouldn't be appropriatehere):

Page 1: Welcome to the "Sell Land" Wizard, "You are about to go through the steps to place this parcel up for sale. Follow the steps of this wizard to ensure the sale is made as you intended and read the summary before you click Finish on the final page." "Don't Display this in the Future" checkbox and Next

Page 2: "When selling land you can either makde it avaiilable to anyone (a General Sale) or a specific person (as when you want to sell to a friend, a member of a group to add it to the Group's land holdings, or you have pre-negotiated the sales terms wth someone." Radio choices for "I want to Sell the Land to Anyone" and "I want to Sell the Land to a Specific Person" "Next" and "Back" buttons.

Page 3 (Anyone Version): "You are planning to make this parcel available for sale to anyone. After finishing this Wizard your parcel will appear immediately in the FIND Land Sales tab. Enter the amount of L$ you wish to sell the land for." Text box for L$ entry, "Next" and "Back" Next skips to Page 6.

Page 3 (Specific Version) "You only want to allow a particular person to be able to buy this land. How would you like to decide who this is?" Radio choices for "Search for the person by Name" or "Select them from the membership list of one of my Groups" with an associated combo for their groups. This would be ghosted if they didn't belong to any groups. "Next" and "Back" buttons.

Page 4 (Search for Person): "Please find the person you wish to sell the land to. By setting this option only this person will be able to buy the land and it will not appear in the FIND Land Sales tab.", include the usual search for avatar dialog but imbedded on the wizard page rather than as the sidebar dialog. "Next" and "Back" buttons.

Page 4 (Person from Group): "Select a member from the group to buy the land.By setting this option only this person will be able to buy the land and it will not appear in the FIND Land Sales tab.", list bo of Avatar Names from the group selected on Page 3. "Next" and "Back" buttons.

Page 5 (Specific Version): "You are planning on making this land for sale to only person xxx. Please enter the amount they will need to pay", L$ box, "Next" and "Back" buttons.

Page 6: Summary of settings chosen so far spelling out exactly the transaction about to happen for example: "You are about to make this land available to anyone to buy for L$1000. After clicking finish your parcel will be listed in FIND Land Sales. Make sure both the price and the fact that anyone can buy the land is what you wanted then click Finish", or "You are about to place this land for sale to xxx for L$yyy. It will remain for sale until you either change the settings or the person buys the land. It will not appear in FIND Land Sales. If this is what you want click Finish to place this land for sale." "Back" and "Finish" buttons

Sorry for the long post, and I plan to make graphic Dialogs for my magazine, but I hope this type of interface would be an easy option both to implement and for newer residents to use.

Wow, I am impressed!!

This is an excellent post Clubside. It is really refreshing to see that you have examined this situation thoroughly and have constructive recommendations in the alternative to the current confirmation dialogs.

I was particularlily intrigued by the inclusion option "Show in FIND Land Sales", much like the $30L a week option to have your business appear on the list.

Maybe a 10 or 15 min delay before the land appears in the FIND Land Sale will help..

I'm not involved in land sales one way or another, but I have bought and sold my fair share of land since being here. What I do know is this.....

I know that first of all, there's a clear explanation of what you are doing before you set your land for sale. Real estate in itself is generally a shark-eat-fish world, and if you're not paying attention to what you're signing (or clicking the case of SL), you're going to get eaten by one shark or another. Second of all, I know the person who is being talked about, quite well. And in every instance I know of, where he was IM'd by the person who he bought land from and when he was told it was a mistake, he gave it back without profit.

Of course, I doubt the original poster is even going to acknowledge that, let alone stop from tearing him up and down across various forums. And yes, I've seen the posts in other SL-related forums, even accusing him of being an alt and saying how she is going to gather more evidence to "expose him", which I can assure you, he isn't. And isn't this against the TOS one way or the other?

The guy might be a land swooper, but he has enough character to give back the land when there's an honest mistake without trying to make a buck from it. Some think land swooping is underhanded, and maybe it is..... I wouldn't do it myself.

But I think making false accusations against someone is even worse, so before you attack someone else's character I think you should take a good strong look at your own.

That could work also.

I really like the idea of a radio button to have the land parcel appear on the list. A good example would be, if a person was not in a rush to sell their land, they could mark it for sale, but it would not appear on the list, which would give the neighborhood a broader opportunity to purchase the land at the original owner's price. It would also stimulate exploring the world, in hopes of finding good deals.

What are you suggesting?

I have absolutely no qualms about how I conduct my business. I do not make false accusations, nor do I attack character without substantiated proof. If you indeed read my post, you will see a transaction history, which is recorded within the Linden systems.

You are making an unfounded accusation against me. It is easy to infer that you are accusing me of doing precisely what I am fighting against. I suggest to you, you have no evidence, your post is accusatory is reported as such.

LOL, I have never even witnessed ONE swoop, so where do you go to find five in two days?

Sorry, but I still say if you didn't want to sell, you should have paid attention...and I'm not a swooper, just someone who understands accountability for my actions.

If I do mess up and make this mistake someday, I won't expect LL to have to fix everything for me...they have enough to do already.



And what happens when they check this checkbox too? Do we then need to bother LL to come to our rescue with two ok buttons, a checkbox and then add another textbox where they have to type "yes"?

Where does accountability come in? Yes, it's sad that people are losing land this way, but they are doing it to themselves...

It would indeed surely be simple to incorporate at 10 or 15 minute delay. This would allow people who are trying to swap land to groups or friends to do so in safety. And give sellers time to check everything is set up right too.

Here's your own post, hon.

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?p=12917#post12917

To quote just one line from you, "I suspect it's an alt of a known board troll, so after I set a few traps and gather enough evidence, I will disclose the main avatar here."

=====
Get off your high horse.

Nah. Land swooping is the action of an arsehole.

We really do need more confirmation, seeing as people still do it - perhaps simply make it impossible for a new resident to sell land for $0 or $1 unless it's also set for sale to one person - but anyone taking advantage of it is an arsehole, simple as that.

You attempt at defaming me for pointing out a very real issue is failing badly.

Sorry, when you're directly attacking an individual you've lost all right to state, "You're pointing out an issue."

In that post you made to which I linked, you (a) named names, (b) insulted him directly by using the word a**hat, and (c) directly accused him of being an alt/board troll and stating very matter of factly you will "expose the main avatar".

Your misdirection will not work here.

BS

I am following the rules here by not posting names and I have not posted any links to offsite boards.

I can say what I please about anyone offsite, secondly I did not "directly" accuse him, I said I "suspect" him (as I do you, particularily with your reference to the SC post).

Co-incidence? I don't think so.

Anyway, if you wish to continue your attack against me, feel free to dodge the ResMods.

I'm quite done with your bait and switch.

moved to land baron lobbiests forum

I'm not attacking you, just making sure everyone else knows as much about the "issue" as possible.

And yes, you can say anything about anyone offsite..... and the fact you do says a lot.

Now, I'm done, have a fantastic day!

So is this thread about:

1. One Land Baron dissing another.

2. Astrotrufing, by making an alt, ripping a newbie off and posting that as an example.

?

1- There is a huge difference between a land baron and a land swooper. A land baron works within the principles and practices of fair business and trade. Sometimes, mistakes get made and a land baron will inadvertantly purchase a parcel of land which was not intended to be sold to "anyone". When this happens, most land barons are all too willing to return the land to the original owner and allow that person to conduct the business they intended, in good faith. A land swooper is a person that exploits the errors of unwitting victims. Far too often, people who intend to sell land to a friend or remove land from a group, make serious errors. A swooper is motivated purely by greed and does not care about the plight they cause as a result of their actions.

2- Sadly, some of the swoopers are alts of savvy residents that are using this exploit for gain. It's greedy, it's dastardly and it's wholly unethical from a business standpoint.

It's not only the 1 dollar transactions that are "swooped". Often, a seller and a land baron will be present on a lot for sale at below or near market value. Another baron will see the sale and TP and make the purchase. However, if any land baron IM'd me and said the purchase was intended for them and the seller did not intend to sell to me, I will return the land to the original owner. Objects on the land or transaction history clearly indicate the previous owner. In case like this, I lose NOTHING, because it was not mine in the first place, and the sale was never intended for me.

It is not worth ruining one's reputation over a plot of land. That is, if you care about SL and it's residents.

I must add that neither are an official term as defined by Linden.

I'm just wondering:

If Hulka gave the land back to the original owner at the same price Weedy got it for, why is Weedy on such a verbal rampage?

Just curious.

Weedy,

One question I have - at what point can you no longer be expected to protect people from their own actions. There are multiple confirmations during this process - if people are choosing not to read what it says, doesn't some of the burden fall on them? I am not defending the practice, which is horrible - I just think people also need to take responsibility for themselves. If something pops up and says "Warning: do not touch, hot!" and you don't read what it says and burn yourself, can you really blame anyone else? What could be done to improve this process?

Good question Chris, I often ask myself this.

Having seen these situations repeatedly again and again over the last two years, the only way I can see to effect change, is to bring matters like these to LL and the forums.

The saddest part Chris, is the dialog boxes may seem clear in the wording, but they still have some very fundamental flaws, in the sense that numerous persons are wholly unaware that other people are watching diligently close to the land list and P2P takes mere seconds to transport buyers. In most cases the buyer and seller are standing right there and the seller will say "My friend was right here, and before I could tell him ok, go ahead and buy it, someone swooped in and grabbed it". It only takes seconds.

It was suggested in one post, that sellers have the option of selecting a radio button which posts the sale to the list for all to see. To a person selling land to a friend for one dollar, it would seem obvious, they would not want to advertise the transaction.

Land tools are sometimes confusing to myself, even after all these years. New residents make mistakes and I've seen some very saddened people as the result of land being swooped. I have returned alot of land, I do so without hesititation once I confirm the previous owner. The end result often being, I made a new friend and have demonstrated trustworthiness in doing so. On a lighter note, often these same friends have contacted me at later dates and offered me great bargains.

A little good will goes a long way.

Agreed on the arsehole. FWIW, you cannot set land to sell for $0 unless it is set to sell to a specific individual. However, setting to $1 does not have this restriction. This says to me that this approach was already tried and failed. People would just set to $2 and have the same problem.

Now on to the larger question at hand.... [IOW, this isn't aimed at you at all, Ordinal.]

For everyone screaming that it's the victim's own damn fault for not reading the dialogs -- do you actually remember what it was like starting in SL? Everything is so overwhelming and you do the best you can. However, blaming the end user is a mistake.

This is a failure in the design of the User Interface, plain and simple. If the same problem keeps occurring again and again, it is not the end users' fault -- it is the designer's fault. For more on this, you might want to read Donald A. Norman's The Design of Everyday Things.

The question then becomes one of how to solve it. At first thought, this is how I would approach it:

1. Land sale prices should not be directly editable
   
2. Instead, you click on a button "Sell Land" or maybe "Change Sale"
   
3. You have a field to enter the sale price
   
4. You then have a choice of three buttons to press:
   1. Cancel
      
   2. Sell Plot To Anyone
      
   3. Sell Plot To Specific Person
      
   
   
5. If the user selects "Specific Person", then it asks for that person's name
   

This way, they would have to make an affirmative action to sell to anyone. And dialogs that read "Is it ok to sell to anyone? {OK} {Cancel}" don't cut it. Bad interface design -- read any decent set of Human Interface Guidelines and you'll see that the buttons should be verbs, not "OK" and "Cancel". There's a reason for this.

I don't know if I'd consider this a bug, but it is definitely bad design. When plots are joined, the resulting plot should not be set for sale, period. The owner should then have to act to set the appropriate price and put it back up for sale.

I agree whole heartedly. Selling to anyone, should be by an affirmative action not defaulted.