Quick thoughts on SL

I apologize. Let me state it more politely.

Thank you for the thoughtful and mature post describing your reasons for thinking SL is a joke, and why therefore griefing is acceptable and to be expected.

I don't agree, and I think this is just an attempt to justify destructive and antisocial behavior. I am not addressing this specifically at you, but at the general attitude of griefers, which bears similarities to your own.

There is something you're missing. The attitude of griefing is one where the person derives his pleasure *primarily* from griefing. This attitude is not caused by the game system at all. It's not boredom, it's not content, they WANT to cause grief. These are the people who will do it given the opportunity, because they can and because they want to. Boredom is not part of their equation. We're talking the type that makes bullies, irrational bosses, and thrillkillers.

These are the people who will reply to you with foul language when you say you're going to report them for abuse.

It's not boredom. They always have the option to leave.

These people have a need to feel powerful, and they do it by griefing people who are minding their own business.

It wasn't my intention, but if it was, who cares? Griefers don't answer to you. They stop when they want to. Your knee-jerk reactions to griefing, in my opinion, perpetuate the problem. They're players, too. The distinction is that A. they don't take the game so seriously (which in itself isn't necessarily a problem) and B. they don't find it all that fun. Thinking of them as people who killed your pets or something just makes the distinctions wider. Acting like a sanctimonious authority figure, like you've done to me, provokes them. I anticipate you act similarly in the game, which is why griefing is a big problem for you.

To be perfectly honest, playing for a couple weeks, I've only been griefed a little bit, and I took it in stride, and it hasn't raised my blood pressure or made me want to kick puppies or anything. It was by no means unbearable.


Edit: Aodhan McDunnough, unless you're a psychologist, neither one of us is qualified to really say what drives griefers to grief, but I can tell you, as someone who was big into the hacking scene of BF1942 (a form of griefing), that I am in no way power-hungry or a bully. And my griefing didn't define me. I bet there are a lot of veterans here who took advantage of the unverified sign-ups to try their hands at griefing. I did it to enhance the game. Speaking of power, the real influence exerted in SL comes from RL money, so I don't blame people who want to have fun outside of having to spend money to raise their status.

Mr. Lach, the conclusions you draw are understandable, and relatively accurate from a certain perspective. However, I would hope that at the same time you are asking that people not react too dismissively to your conclusions, you would also take a brief moment to consider their perspective.

You did after all title your thread "Quick thoughts" and state that you based your perceptions upon two weeks in-world. If I might offer an analogy, think of the reactions of some of the folks here as the kind of reactions you would get from native New Yorkers if they were talking to someone who had been in the metropolis for two weeks and was discussing the problems of the city based upon having spent those two weeks in Times Square and mid-town.

Yes, the reality that the tourist experienced during those two weeks in the middle of Manhattan is true within the limits of that particular time and space, and the perceptions gained by that tourist are absolutely legitimate (again, within the limits of the experience). Nonetheless, the native New Yorkers would be somewhat justified if they felt that the tourist's conclusions should not be applied to the entire depth and breadth of the metropolis. This after all, is why plenty of folks who live in Brooklyn or Queens never go into Manhattan unless they absolutely have to.

You are correct Mr. Lach, that griefing is way out of hand in certain areas, and that the flashy, superficial and sinful has come to dominate the experience in some of these same areas. By way of a completely subjective counterpoint, in my own experience in the couple of years I have spent in-world, I have had a wonderful time in areas where there are no clubs, casinos or professional escorts, and I have only seen one real griefer in action. The other fellow I encountered who might have been a griefer, seemed to be defused when I welcomed him into my pub, gave him a mug of ale and chatted amiably with him.

Again, my experience like yours, should not be taken as universal, as it was gained in certain areas that are perhaps very different from some of the kinds of places you visited. Granted, what I know of SL is only true of the checkerboard of communities and properties that I have chosen to explore or live in. I geuss--continuing the analogy--you can argue that I am the guy in Astoria who figures that "if you can't find it on Steinway Street, you probably don't need it," and who wouldn't go to Broadway and 42nd in Manhattan unless you put a gun to his head. I would agree with you that something has to be done about street crime around Penn Station, but I would not write off the entire city because of that particular negative reality.

Again, I would point out you clearly stated these were "quick thoughts" you are offering, implying that your journey and the conclusions reached in the process may have been a tad rushed. If you are still interested in seeing something of the metropolis beyond the tourist traps and foofy retail, please feel free to look me up in world sometime--I would be happy to introduce you to what little I know of the more complex layers of the platform. Likewise, I am sure many of the other odd characters who populate the various levels of the platform would be willing to act as Virgil to your Dante and help you pick your way through the Inferno and Purgatory to something a bit more engaging.

Aldo- Fantastic post. Exceedingly well put, and your New York analogy seems appropriate. I found Lach's post interesting because despite his relative lack of experience he seemed to touch on some good points -- truths which I believe are readily apparent to even the most casual SL observer. But you do an excellent job re-contextualizing the more negative posts present in this thread. I still don't understand how one would read the OP and view it as a -defense- of griefing (I didn't even come close to drawing that conclusion -- one of his -complaints- was about griefing), but I do understand how an experienced SLer might see this two-week old account firing off observations and take offense.

Anyway, well written.

By the way, I would also tend to agree with some of the points made here by several posters, including the OP that an element of what makes griefing a problem is how the citizenry reacts. Yes there is an inclination among many to look to Big Daddy for a solution, and while that is not unreasonable when one is theoretically paying for service, past experience has shown--as Ms. McDunnough suggested--that the company is using the platform in its current form as a device for experimentation.

Creating a game called Second Life that runs smoothly and predictably does not seem to be the goal. They set this universe in motion and to a great extent have sat back to see how the lab rats make their own ways through the maze.

But anyway, back to the issue of "we have met the enemy and he is us" I also agree that often how a resident reacts to a griefing contributes to the griefing's impact and whether or not more will occur focusing on the same target. This of course is not universally true--nothing in life is--but does seem to be a peculiar recurring reality. It is understanble to respond to grief with outrage and dramatic posts in the forums, but it is somewhat counter-productive as it seems to enhance the entertainment value for the perps.

Even fighting back--particularly when done well and with panache--might be seen as making the griefing experience more interesting and therefore an appealing challenge to those who are inclined to grief. I have noticed that many property owners have in fact sort of taken up the gauntlet with substantial enthusiasm. Perhaps some of us are relishing "taking the law into our own hands" just a bit too much to be able to say that we hate griefing, as we in effect turn the war on griefers into a game in itself.

And arguably there is nothing wrong with that, if everyone involved is having fun with it, but of course not everyone is. It certainly isn't something simple where one fix fits all people and situations.

Thank you Mr. Weary, that is kind of you to say. Your posts were also well considered, I thought. If you're ever in Caledon, please feel free to look me up at the "Falling Anvil" in the village of Tamrannoch.