Thoughts of a Fool: Community and Commerce, or why I'm worried...

Well, being a yearling now, I feel that I can actually see trends and patterns in the SL community that I would not have seen except over the passing of several months.

One of the first things I have noticed, is that walking into the forums, in general, is like walking into a bloody KNIFE FIGHT! Seriously, if people are not sniping at each other for every imagined slight or warring against their personal hate of the week, they're complaining about just about anything they can find.

I'm not saying that some of this is normal: People just don't get along sometimes. The problem is, the amount of crap-throwing is increasing in direct relation to the decrease of interesting discussions or themes. The same people who were happy and friendly just a year ago have become bitter as of late, and those who have not are often brutalized for voicing a happy opinion or thought!

What happened to us?

Where are the fun projects? Where are the folk who just like to sit back and talk for a bit, enjoying others company? Where is the debate without anger, hatred, and nastyness?

Even LL is not immune: In the last year, I have watched as communication between the Lindens and Avatars dropped off to nearly being non-existant! Keep in mind, that's compared with them communicating ALOT before. Have they stopped talking with us because of problems on their end, or because they just got tired of listening to us chop anything that get's close to pieces?

I don't know, and what's more, don't know if it's possible to fix it. Sadly, when married friends of mine start having this problem... Well... Let's just say they didn't stay together long.


Another side to this is the general idea that community and business are juxtiposed in a war of some kind. It never fails that I hear some kind of anti-business sentiment, either subtile or cruel.

They aren't seperate, and they ain't opposed.

Let me point out an example: Many of you are familiar with Botany's Grove? Many of you have wandered there to see it and enjoy the way it looks?

Guess who is maintaining it now? Prok Neva.

He eats the cost to keep that build up because he likes it, and he knows others do as well. When we wanted space to have a May-Day festival last year, he provided the land and free vendor spots for people with relevant items to sell.

And his other businesses helped to pay for that. My building business also payed for some things that had to be done.

Business is not bad for SL just because you can't SEE what good it does for SL. Without business, you would not even HAVE SL.


I don't want everyone to get into a group hug, or even to LIKE each other. I just want you all to look back on your posts for hte last year, and think: Was I like this before, and do I WANT to be like this now?


And to Linden Labs: Communication IS a key to success in what you have made here. I know you guys get busy, and that joining a conversation is sometimes like walking in front of a firing squad some days, but seriously consider this.

Without communication, it will only get worse. Priority's change, but don't forget that being a part of the community you created is chief among them. There was a time when Lindens could be seen wandering the world all the time. I rarly see one anymore.



Anyway, enough ramblings for this week. Just let me get my asbestos underoos on and...

Admirable sentiment, Foolish, but I think use of one of the bloodiest knife fighters ever to slash his way through the community as your sole example detracts from your point.

I haven't noticed anything different to be honest. I think most forums are like this and as far back as I can remember, so were the SL forums.

But I also tend to think that people are more likely to focus on the negativity when it happens and sort of ignore the more amiable, productive threads.



This is deliberate on LL part I believe, as they are trying to extricate themselves from many facets of the sl community and not just the forums. They have handed the reins over to us, which was their intention from the start, and now we're seeing it in action with the implementation of the new island tools and the res mod system and many other things that let us have control over SL as opposed to the Lindens.

OMG!!!

player run government!!!

Foolish, I've never met you, but you won't ever have to worry about a 'knife fight' with me. Even if we manage to find disagreement.

I'm far from perfect. So are others. Am I elitist, opinionated, or otherwise unpleasant in myriad ways myself? Perhaps. I don't hide my thoughts.


But win, lose or draw, it's just so... incredibly low class to be rude, name-call and such in a forum.



Maybe some relish such a tacky image. Or don't have the social skills to realise how they are characterising themselves, between the lines of their own text.

Hard to say, but I suppose it's safe to presume such commentary won't end. I'm not so predictably provocable that it matters to me much - at most, I'll want the three minutes of my life back after reading something particularly pointless.

I think it adds to it, in fact, perfectly exemplifies the point. It's so much easier to have our villains evil through and through and excuse the missteps of others because they are "good people". bleh. It isn't so. When you can accept that people you don't like have redeeming qualities, then there'll be a chance for a community restored. Until then, the free for all will continue with only the most stubborn and ornery hanging in there; the rest will drift away, some slowly, others before you've even acknowledged they were here.

Just commenting on the part about the communication here. Im rather new but I have thought the communication here has been excellent. The last game I left it was next to none. And I mean none. So if it used to be even more then I don't know but wow its more than most.

Melonie, you must be from TSO!

It was that way for me, too.

I don't think the Lindens have retreated from residents in order to "put things in our hands." The resmod system, for instance, isn't in our hands. It is in the hands of the ones they want to give the power to, and that would be pretty much unsupervised power, from what I can tell.

I think they have retreated somewhat with their favorite residents, the ones they enjoy working with on major projects, etc., and sort of circled the wagons. I don't think they care a lot about what happens to individual residents; they just care about not being bothered too much.

But even so, I still - after over a year here - consider the Lindens to be the most accessible and (with few exceptions) most friendly game company people I have ever encountered.

Overall, I think they really do want to maintain their own immersion in the world, and keep listening to all of us. The problems come when they they toss things to their favorites and then turn their back on everyone else (or listen mainly to their favorites). And that happens, too much.

Margaret, I love what you said. It is so true.

coco

Foolish,

Interesting thoughts - I would suggest you spend some time looking through the 60,000 snapshots on Snapzilla that coincide with the past year of your SL (since Snapzilla just turned 1 as well). In those images you will see a world that is quite different from your take on it - you see people happy, together, creating, exploring, enjoying, and just living in SL. These forums are a tricky medium - people generally are much more likely to express displeasure than they are contentment, so right there the forums have a negative tone in general. Still, these forums are a world better than most community sites of similar size and interest. They are one of the few outlets we have to talk collectively, however, which is where the airing of so many grievances comes from.

Combine that with the strong personalities and the creative, passionate people you find in SL, and it is no surprise there is conflict, even knock down, drag out, clawing out the eyes kind of drama. However, just a glance at Snapzilla or a look at the Notices and Well Wishes forum or reflecting back on how we as a community pulled together to help after the tsunami and the hurricanes of last year, and I think you will see all is not lost - you just aren't looking at it through the right frame of mind.

Oh I agree, however, I don't think we (figurative we)
are placing the same people in the same roles.

And that's really the whole ball of wax isn't it? Perception?

It doesn't matter. It applies to whoever you find to be your opposition.

Right, but my point is, that just because you, I, or anybody else may think we're right about who is in what role, doesn't make either of us right necessarily. Usually the truth lies muddled somewhere in between. However, people, by nature, want to believe thay are right, and so we find ourselves locked in perpetual debates about who is right and who is wrong, since the dawn of time.

Also, if it doesn't matter, why hand-wring over it? (not that I think you're hand wringing here). Why not assume a neutral position and try to guide form there? I say that because it's my firm belief you cannot change people by scolding them from one side or the other.

It's a terribly tricky thing, because even if one does manage to remain perfectly neutral, they face cries of "utopian dreamer" and the like, and may just say "screw it".

Oh please, I scolded no one. I described a common human trait. It *is* easier for all of *us* to dismiss people by putting them in boxes labeled good/bad, right/wrong. I try to be mindful of that so as to avoid polarizing myself from others. I disagree that Foolish's post was detracted from by using Prok as an example. Hold on as tight as you want to your animosity, I'll drift back out now. The forum nanny/mother box you keep me in is too stifling for a fruitful discussion.

Yowza!

I hadn't realized that your interpretation was going to be based on old differences here. I guess you're not eating your own dogfood then, and that's saddening.

I was speaking in the figurative sense as well Margaret. In all my responses to you thus far. If you'll note, I edited my first reply to indicate as such before you even replied to me and furthermore, I said scolding from either side, which was also from a figurative POV (read: not YOU, a hypothetical situation, and certainly not this thread - jeez, I didn't think or say you were scolding anyone here.). Surely you don't disagree that scolding does go on? In fact that's what usually starts it up, when someone takes issue with how someone else is acting and voices as such.

I am in no way insinuating that I am not as guilty as the next person either.

I am very sorry that you don't realize I was trying to expand upon what you were saying, and in fact agree with it for the most part. It's something i have been trying to find a way to say for a long time.

I thought I went out of my way to disclaim that I wasn't directing it at you. There's that nasty perception rearing it's head again.

<sigh>

Here we go again...

I guess it's my fault Foolish, for not being more clear. Sorry about that.

I also was referring to the human condition in the general sense, but I obviously failed miserably at making that clear.

Don't be so inconsiderate, man. How can Foolish make his point that he's better than everyone if the "everyone" isn't actually that bad? Come on, leave it alone, dude.

I'm not getting into blame or anything like it. This is symptomatic of the ENTIRE FORUM!

People are so used to people being snippy and snide here, that they can't even communicate in ANY meaningful way! What are people so bloody angry about, anyway?

C'mon. It's all right to dissagree, but ALL the TIME?

Aw, c'mon. I didn't call anyone a villain. I didn't say who should or shouldn't get a pass for being "good." I didn't say anyone was evil through and through. What I said was that I felt Foolish had chosen an example that detracted from his point, and that was ALL I said.

First: Foolish is concerned about the tone of the forums. Did the person he mentioned provide a positive example of how to maintain civil discourse in the forums? No.

Second: Foolish is concerned that there is an us vs. them, community vs. business sentiment in SL. Has the person he held up provided a positive example of how to heal that division? No, regardless of any parks he's funded, this person did more than any other single person in SL to force this us vs. them division.

Third: Any mention of this person is likely to spark controversy, overshadowing the original subject and often derailing the thread. And this third reason was really the point of my previous post.

I think Foolish would have done much better to choose other examples that would have better supported his point. I've seen posters like Desmond Shang trying to bring "civility" to the Economy forum. Even Enabran Templar has told a few folks to lay off when they were being mean to other posters lately. There's been more and more of this sort of thing. I have noticed a trend toward kindness and reasonableness here, even including a public apology by Nolan to Prokofy.

The community versus business thing is entirely artificial, and it's mostly just flamebait. Businesspeople sponsor events and community resources. Stroll down to the Shelter sometime and see who's supplying prizes for the events for newbies. Check out who's answering questions in the forums, and who's chipping in to provide resources on Hiro's SLDevelopers.com site.

This is a strong community -- a VERY strong one. The forums are actually pretty darn tame compared to most. The big fights usually involve the same old people, who could just put their opponents on mute and walk away. But there are always people who like to do the forum fighting thing. Pile-ons are less and less frequent. Posts that would lead to general chaos and bloodshed in many other online communities often cause hardly a ripple here. Newbie-bashing is not prevalent here, and anyone who decides to give it a try gets told off by other members of the community.

There are classes for newbies, and free clothing and homes and toys for them. It's possible to have a great time here for free, and that's because members of the community provide these things. Newbies often comment on how welcoming SL is, and are downright shocked by all the great stuff and assistance they are given for free.

Linden-bashing has been on the upswing. It's really spiked in recent months, though I saw this trend coming a year and a half ago. Although there are things the Lindens can try to do to mitigate it, it's a phase they're just going to have to go through. It's something that happens in EVERY online community of this sort at about this point in its development, no matter what the community management team tries to do about it.

The Lindens are still talking with the community. They still show in Find, and you can IM anytime. You can send an email, or pick up the phone. And they have Torley running around spreading cheer and watermelon and getting answers, all over the forum and all over the grid. Andrew has been posting a lot lately, along with Karen and others.

There are a lot more people here than there were, and it's not realistic to expect the ratio of staff to members to remain the same. The Lindens will be spread more thinly. They won't be able to personally respond to the same percentage of posts, or to show up at the same percentage of events. You won't run into them inworld as often. However, this doesn't mean they don't care. It doesn't mean they aren't working their butts off. It doesn't mean the place is in trouble. It just means SL is growing up.

Oh hell, look, now I went and typed a novel. All your fault, Margaret.

<blinks>
<Thinks on it>
<blinks again>
<considers it again>

"Better than everyone..."

Hrmnnnn...

You know, looking back on old posts, you never struck me as being that way before... I wonder, where did you wander into that thought pattern at?

Frost, I agree with you. This is one of the angrier forums I've seen, in terms of what's being said. (How it's being said, is, relatively speaking, not so bad. It's the sheer willingness of many of the posters to complain and argue that's staggering.) This place is more or less as bad as a forum I've been on that was dedicated to complaining and sniping.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a lot you can do; the character of established forums is, I believe, something that's difficult to impossible to reshape.

So you're completely discarding the fact that I am telling you it was a misunderstanding?

You're going to make a thread of this nature, then I apologize for not being clear and causing a misunderstanding, explain my intentions, and you want to take that up and hold it in the sky for everyone to see as an example of how right you are? How desperate are you to be right that we're all a bunch of knifers?

At least you could wait a couple pages (after I am gone from the thread, because I will be after this post -- it's a waste of time to try and converse with people who have made up their mind and hold such an Eeyorishly bleak outlook.) for something more symptomatic?

Good grief.

At this point I am going to have to agree with Enabran, and I also am now realizing that Prokofy's name was probably dropped on purpose, in hopes that people would get in an argument, so that Foolish could be the darling dandy who was right about all us Jack the Rippers.

Kim,

Excellent post - I agree 100% with everything you said.

Thumbing your nose at the entire community whilst elevating the actions of a banned griefer, perhaps?

I can see right through you, Foolish. You have not succeed at pulling the wool over my eyes, no less anyone else other than the usual suspects of malcontent.

You're missing the point of what I said, I didn't single you out or not understand it was an apology, I was saying the misunderstanding in the first place is the point. This is not about individual, this is about the forums, as a whole, being ANGRY. Comments are misunderstood as nastyness because they are so used to hidden attacks and subtile contexts. If I said, in any thread, that "I like X" and put in a name of any individual that has some conflict about them... What do you think will happen?

The person will think it's an attack and act accordingly.

So yes, that entire misunderstanding DOES underline my point. We've become a bunch of hating, angry, paranoid people. We look for the worst before the best in a post. We attack at any percieved slight. We note any possible weakness for later use.

And for the record, look at my first post. I DO include myself among those that have been becoming bitter. And so far, this thread has done nothing but move me along the path of "bugger ALL of your asses" sentiment.



As to the snapzilla being a happier place, the only thing I can say to that is, it's not a place for conversation, it's a place to display art, like a gallery. The nature ther would be on the other end of the spectrum, seeing as how people are not likly to take the time to post on things they don't like. It also has limited range for discussion, since it is mainly a pictographic medium. I'm glad it helps you to affirm your faith in SL users, though.

[Weedy Herbst]

Elevating Prok? By what? He did something I KNOW of. He was an example I HAD. Right now, I'm not even on very good terms with him, considering my T-shirt attack on the MJW. The point on that was what it was: Things done for the community for free have to be paid for by someone. Business and money managment create community.

As to thumbing my nose at the community? Why not? You guys have been doing it to each other for MONTHS now! THAT'S THE POINT! Mentioning one person's name should not be able to generate this much hate.

Where is all the hate coming from? It's like a plague here!