A Moral Question

Okay originally I posted this in a completely other game forum. The responses surpised me greatly so I thought I'd post the question here (as well as the link to the other forums for those curious to see what had been said *and flamed* there). I would love to discuss this here and possibly join in an ingame discussion on it if anyone is interested that is intersted. As SL is more socially oriented I suspect your responses will be drastically different.

I personally would be pretty pissed that they had been dishonest about something pretty important.

Yes.

Even if you never directly asked them who they were in RL? Personally I think I'd be more hurt that they wouldn't have volunteered the information before hand...but then again, perhaps they had a good reason not to.

OMG it's a man, man!

I don't think it should matter for age, or race...

But gender. Oof. When two people start to fall in love they ARE going to start to fantasize about the future, about romantic encounters, about starting a family even! Most personal traits really wouldn't stand in the way of these dreams, but gender WILL. So I think the player that was lied to has a right to feel hurt.

There are some tricky grey areas though. I am not sure how I feel about post-op transexuals. There is a side of me that feels that if they went through THAT MUCH TROUBLE to be a member of the opposite sex, they should be able to have it without strings attached. But they should be mindful that some partners could be really hurt if they found out.

It's complicated.

To fall for someone, you have to be in there pretty deep, know a fair bit about them. I just can't imagine it possible falling for someone without 'knowing' their gender, whether truthful or not. It's not because I have a Q & A before falling for someone lol, it's just because you can't fall for anyone without knowing a fair bit about them. Well at least for me.

*nod* I suppose that this is a very general senario I posed, could be taken so many ways. I mean a little word here and there could change the meaning. For instance what if you both decided ingame that you do care for each other, but it'd never work outside of the game...kinda an unspoken agreement. Then I dunno if anything would be different, but yeah if you two were talking about meeting outside the game...that would change things.

I'm not one to ask about "morality".

But, this template of a situation can go so many ways. I don't put the onus on one person because there are TWO involved. In some cases, I've wondered and have politely asked. In others, it reveals itself over time naturally when we're hanging out. Sooo very context-specific.

My Jadey was gracious enough to tell me upfront when it came up in conversation one day, and when Torley Sr. (as a guy) was still around. And then Torley Jr. (a girl) entered the world of Second Life.

I do like when a couple good people can talk freely and openly to each other.


Or... consider a certain variant:


~crazy violin cue, all atonal and bass-ackwards, plays~


It's funny. Reality doesn't necessarily change, but your perception of it does. New information does that to a person, i.e.


~mellow ambient cue, all beatless and sonographic, plays~

I don't think it's tricky. This is not about what they are, but what they are not. It doesn't matter if that person is a cross between Megatron and Bambi with a fetish for car exhausts, all that is important is the other person is aware of that and cool with that.

Age I think is VERY important. Not everyone wants to dip into the young-and-gorgeous pool for their own amusement. And certainly, not everyone in the y/g pool would be thrilled to discover that their online soulmate actually has thirty years on them.

Now IF they know each other well, and IF they are well aware of their respective ages before they start getting intimate, and it doesn't bother either of them, then ok, if that's what they wanna do. But to find out after the fact - that could well be horrid! For both parties.

coco

OMG Hiro that's SUCH a great hybrid. Sooo diggin' it!

I think there have been some recent threads on this where you might look for some additional points of view. As I recall, the positions taken (and sometimes stoutly defended) ran the gamut from "pixels have no gender" to "shock and outrage".

This is a question that will continue to bring us endless pain until the day we can all choose and remake our RL bodies as we do avatars.

That won't end it entirely though. I've had more friends get upset with me when I switched my avatar's gender than when they found out it didn't match up with my RL sex. Anyone else have that experience?

Hrmmm. Well it's complicated because it drills down to the fundamental questions of what you LIKE in a mate. There are all kinds of hypotheticals here. If you met a woman who told you she couldn't have children early on, but otherwise she was beautiful, feminine, fun to be with, and had great girlbits. What would be the source of your anger if you found out she is a post-op transexual?

I think "She/he lied to me" is valid but it would be a cop-out to say that the lie was the sole source of anger because there really aren't any other lies that produce THIS kind of emotional response. There is something else at the core that generates the revulsion and there is a side of me that wants to say that it isn't the transexual's fault that the core explodes. Instead maybe we shouldn't be carrying so much anxiety about them in the first place.

As I said, my ideas on this are not 100% solidified, so don't take this as me picking a side. Right or wrong, transexuals should know that many people carry this anxiety, and if they really care about you, they shouldn't have been leading you down a path that they KNOW will cause you pain and suffering later on.

*grin* I"m a sociologist and the moral of this situation is more how you answer. It's simply amazing the amount of hate and flaming that one question caused. Actually it kinda makes me disappointed in our culture for not nurturing a more open-minded generation. I mean seeing some of these responses; you can see how certain global tragedies and wars could happen.

*edited spelling mistakes.

For me, personally, it would change a lot. I'm hetero, it's the one thing I am sure of in my life.

But I don't fall in love with someone I don't know. I may develop a crush on the personality, and that's happened to me for both sexes, but I have yet to fall in love with someone before knowing much about them.

For me, I can tell the difference in a female and male behind the keyboard - to me, it's obvious. Whether they are hetero, homo or trans, I can tell. And some of you avs out there know that I can.

So, I think you'd have to be pretty unaware to fall in love with someone and not know their gender.

Remember: If it's too good to be true, it usually isn't true.

I've recently been reading some interesting science fiction (new to the genre thanks to my man) where folks can change their gender and experience life as the opposite sex. I think that is a cool idea and I would love the opportunity to experience life as a man, but I don't know if it would change my sexual orientation or if I would just become homosexual in that case...

I would just like our society (USoA mostly) to get OUT of the victorian age and be more comfortable with our sexuality in general. It's a wish...

You remind me of GENDER MAN, the brilliant comic creation of Nathan Walton and Monica Young who believed he could determine anybody's true gender...

http://www.plywoodcomic.com/strip16.htm

Ayuh... I'm glad you said this... "how you answer" for me, is like koans. I like koans.

I just simply don't relate to... as you pointed out... "hate and flaming".

It's not about being narrow minded, it's about the right to know certain things if you are to be intimate with someone. I consider myself very open minded. But I also think that if you are being intimate with someone, you should also be completely honest about such things. It's not right to just suppose that the other person doesn't need to know these things. I think that's selfish and self centered.

Like hiro said, the issue isn't gender / age / whatever, but rather honesty.

I think the question would be more interesting to say you started hanging around with someone and found them very enjoyable to talk to and to hang out with, but then found out they weren't the gender you first assumed.

Would your opinion change of them?

I've had this happen to me a lot. I've found it doesn't change anything for me.

Falling in love with someone without knowing a lot about them is, well, foolish.

Hilarious!
I don't go overboard, I just can tell. And I don't out anyone or fault anyone. This is a fantasy world, we can do, be, wear, ride, build, create whatever we like. I love that about my Second Life...and I love all my friends, gender benders, furries, barbies, mecha...you get the picture.
Thanks for the link Aimee...hilarious. I love that comic strip, he's really talented!

That's a good question. I think anyone who said they wouldn't see them differently in some way is not being completely honest. Every bit of information you learn about a person has an affect on how you view them. As long as you are not closed minded, it won't be in a negative way.

Lizbeth, do you mean sex or gender? I used to think it was easy to tell but I've been wrong often as not. Maybe I just know too many people who are human.