think i'll get an answer on this?

I agree for the most part. I am advocating that given the above statement to be on target (ie crystal clear is a pipe dream), then I just want a more consistent "philosophy" articulated. I don't really want the RMs each having separate interpretation, but following the same philosophical approach to the loose guidelines. And yes the creation of a "knowledge base" of cases and resolutions is a good start, but that already exists, LL just has to sort the moderation posts that have already been applied to get it. And perhaps that search will reveal a thing or two about previous success/failure in moderation technique.

I'm so excited! And I just replied too! =^_^=

that isn't literally, Torley, that's figuratively.

Whichever way, it's the best I could do!

Yay! breathing and drinking water and eating food are literally "living" someplace; it's very easy to forget this is just an escape

Torley, i LOVED your post there. your positive vibes have always been inspirational to me and many times i find my speech patterns reflecting yours for a short time after reading any of your longer posts.

i feel like a shard from some shared distant source.. like a wavelength that resonates amongst the patterns of my mind ringing with similarity when i read your descriptions of SL, both within/without.

so, just wanted to say, groovy post. (not to mention Robin's posts as well, which i'll address partially in my next post)

Cybin, I very and honestly mean this with respect: I disagree completely with your statement. Maybe I just don't get it, or maybe i'm just too cynical? I am still, as nearly always, trying to wade through what Torley is saying, it honestly and I feel badly to say it, seems to be yet another "i'm very happy to be here"* comment, in 10k words. Is there a point to any of the cheerleading? Is there there to be a concrete, solid, "this is what we're doing as a direct response to what you asked for", comment ever? Heck, I'm happy to be here; I'd like to consider that an assumed and go on from there.

Very frustrating to me, and very dishearteining. When we all get done blowing each other for being here and building prims, please let me know, so we can honestly and factually address issues with our mutual future.

Taco

* Torley, I DO love you, I just feel you post within the given, constantly. If we all love SL and we all love being here, then can we move on based on that, rather than finding new ways to reiterate that in various posts, and instead work together to address legitimate problems and kung-fu the shit out of bugs, slap watermelon stickers on issues, and hug ourselves into the 21st century?

Thats 5 minutes of my life I won't get back.

I don't want positive vibes - I want info. When I want cheerleading I'll catch halftime at a college game on friday nights.

I'm kinda with Taco on that.

And speaking of Taco - you shite - I nearly busted my nut unpacking Sunday morning and you never called my cell.

I was out of town by the time you sent it, you twat...i DID bust a nut asking for "Siggy" in cabs, but they kept taking me to <insert insult, I can't due to COS/TS> clubs.

first of all, let me say thank you to all who have expressed their sympathy/empathy. i, as well as the other ResMods i'm sure, truly appreciate it.
--

to answer, "why am i doing this?"

simply because i have a passion for Second Life, both in-world and the forums. from the moment i stepped into SL i instantly entrenched myself with what existed of our world at that time. the first thing i did was spend hours in Appearance Mode and have changed extremely little since then. Second Life is literally a (day)dream come true for me and i wish to see it flourish and become more than we can reasonably expect it to be.
as for the forums, i'm just as passionate. when i tell others in RL about our forums, i explain how they can be brutal and raw.. BUT, i immediately follow that up with explaining why i believe it's that way (and more). i let them know we have an eclectic group here consisting of many who are above average in intelligence and amazing artists. sometimes i'll just sit back and proclaim how wild it is here, how different it is from so many other forums out there. we have discussions ranging from Evolution vs. Intelligent Design to the 3 Word Thread to architecural design to SL fund raising for RL causes and so many more wildly differing subjects.

these reasons and many more are why i'm doing this.. why i'm "sticking my neck out". i wasn't asked to, i'm not acting as an official mouthpiece, and i don't consider it as taking the heat for them. granted, i understand the need for official commentary (which we've very recently gotten some of) and i'm not trying to act as such or replace it. i'm simply doing what i've always done, being as positive a force as i can be. it's just that now, while i may not have the power of Linden-hood (i can dream though, right? ) , i do have a position that by definition means i'm supposed to be pro-active on the forums and have a spotlight on me because of that. so, i'm simply acting in an augmented state of being for the time being.
--

i have to say, i disagree that moderation = controlling speech, nor is there as much a lack of guidelines as is perceived.

taking appropriate action when someone attacks someone else isn't a gustapo-esque form of speech restriction, it's protecting the rights of LL's customers and the civil rights of humans no matter who they are. editing the names out of a post that names someone else in a negative manner is the same thing. actively keeping watch for sexually explicit pictures could be considered a "freedom of speech" matter within the arena of the forums and as such isn't restricting that freedom.. it's keeping a modicum of decency (however odd that modicum may be in it's totality).

and the guidelines are fairly clear, as i've come to understand them from Linden statements added upon the ToS/CS. it's as simple as this:
any language is allowed as long as it doesn't attack someone personally or for specific reasons. (keeping in mind that words like "liar, thief, cheater" are discouraged but allowed, applying this in essence to statements with/without swearing as well)
topless pictures of avatars are allowed, while explicit sexual photos are not. (think of widely accepted artistic terms here)
thread derailment will get it moved or closed.
ResMods are to post, where possible, to derailing threads to attempt to bring them back On Topic or to try to end personal disputes. if this doesn't work, or is too far gone, then the thread needs to be closed with a brief reason and submitted for Linden Review.
--

in light of all this,when i ask the community "how should i do this or that", it's not because i don't know what i'm doing or that there is a lack of knowledge as to what i should be doing, it's because if this program is going to work it will be due to input from the community. i ask so that i can attempt to incorporate the wishes of as many SLers as possible into the inner-workings of what the ResMods do by way of suggestions within the ResMod forums.

as cheesy as it sounds, i ask because i care.
--

ok, i'll stop for now.. i'll return later to respond to more within this thread, but i don't want to inundate anyone with TOO much information in one post.. whch i fear i may have done already.

*pokes head in.

*Reads it all.

Have we resolved anything at all yet?

Nope.

*goes afk and makes a snack.

authority doesn't come through force alone.

the ability to speak with authority can come from being able to simply say what is or isn't allowed. such speech can be backed up by what is agreed to as appropriate, or by force.

the problem with the forums is that the agreement isn't there. and the biggest reason it isn't there is that it's not clear what the agreement is, and what it's for.

some of the confusion arises from uneven application of what agreement there is. why do some threads that offend some people get policed, but not some other threads that offend other people?

part of that unevenness is the scaling problem. there are most posts than just jeska, torley, and robin can police. so there are resmods to help find the problems.

however, there's a second problem in that the resmods and the llmods before them haven't been very clear on what is implemented as policy. people point at the cs, tos, and guidelines... but the application of the stated policy hasn't been even. and the stated policy isn't clear.

so there is some disjoint between what is stated and what happens.

* * *

here's the litmus test, could the forum regulars predict which controvertial threads or posts will get policed?

if you read the responses, it seems not. it doesn't matter if the forum regulars think the policing is fair at this point... the salient issue is: "could people who have been here long enough tell you with even 80% accuracy which questionable posts will get swatted?" (for reference i leave you with this pointer: /108/e4/88859/6.html#post902212)

that's another way of asking, "could a forum member (resmod/llmod or not) speak authoratively about the policy?"

excluded middle.

the choices aren't "no rules" and "crystal clear rules".

the goal is making things as clear as possible. and that is doable - the evidence is that there are many well moderated forums out in the world.

clearer (and more meaningful) rules than currently exist would be good and a step in the right direction.

i found the post incoherent and distracting from the issue at hand.

read: not helpful or contributing

/hijack

Torely, I've been reading these forums for 2 and 1/2 years. I've said it to you before, and I'll say it to you again, you are an incredibly positive influence in this crazy place.

No, I'm not one for cheerleaders, and I can't stand someone blowing smoke up my ass. However, your posts are so enthusiastic they help ease the "pain" and frustration I feel from the lack of leadership shown from LL. You are doing your best to remain positive. Keep on keeping on, Torely Linden.

/end hijack

sadly my question has been misinterpretted:

"this" is referring to "the fact that you are sticking your neck out to ease the tensions about the resmod program".

"this" doesn't refer to "why you're a resmod"

and the question has the implied, "why isn't ll the one defending the resmod program?"

I so wanted to hijack too! I'm glad ya did so I can say...

I agree Torley your a bright spot in the fourms and you shine shine shine

Cat

This post appears to be a personal matter which might be better addressed with an PM/IM or in-world conversation and as such I'm going to close it. I'd like to remind everyone that the forums are a public area for the Second Life community’s use. Individuals who have a dispute with each other have other channels of communication to discuss their differences or communicate – private messaging, IM within Second Life, or chatting within Second Life.

Be The Leadership

Stone, it's all part and parcel from my end. it's the same answer for both questions. my enthusiasm for SL and the forums are both why i volunteered to be a ResMod and why i'm sticking my neck out.

i took on this position knowing i'd be put in a precarious position to begin with, so sticking my neck out is just a natural progression of my reasons for being involved in this to begin with.

and i answered it somewhat as well in that post with this part:

--

as far as why isn't LL doing the speaking up, well.. i'm not sure. i'm not privvy to that bit of info.. but the statements we've seen from Robin and Torley are at least a step in that direction. (granted i have seen a couple other relevant statements from JEska as well)
but i hear ya.. a more active discussion between LL and SLers would go a long way to bridge this gap.

i agree.i think active discussion would be great, but i'd settle with ll saying, "our thoughts on this were..." "we want to achieve..." "we think this will work because..." "this other situation doesn't seem to work for us because..." "this could have been better..." "oops... our bad..." or stuff like that.

some of the problems with the resmod program is that it re-exposed serious flaws in the pre-resmod forum policies. the resmods stepped on the same moderation landmines that have been stepped on since the beginning.

it's disappointing that ll hasn't dealt with those underlying problems.

the resmod program (in the end) is probably the right solution to the scaling problem of the forums.

but it is probably not the right answer for trying to address the underlying problems. the resmod program may only aggrevate the existing problems - which is what it has done so far.

actually, some of those questions have been answered in one form or another. the places where it's been done a widely varied and i wouldn't ask you to look them up for yourself either. it would be great to have a stickied thread in General with answers to all of those questions for easy and concise referrance.
--

perhaps the chaos that has erupted is a good thing?

sometimes stirring things up is what's needed for it to settle correctly.

another idea i've been mulling over is what if the ResMod program grew into a training ground for more official Linden forum moderators? a process that the (forum) community could participate in..

for example, somewhere down the line, LL could take a selection of ResMods that they feel have been exemplary in their moderation and offer a poll (with an "Other" option) of that list to see who the community felt most comfortable with, then the top one or two of that list could move on to be hired as real LL employees with full moderating "powers".

this way the ResMods could perform as a helpful front-line, while at the same time being trained for possible employ to beef up the LL moderation staff. which could also, possibly, help encourage fair and decent ResModding.

Except that I've seen exactly zero concrete statements of action (or indended action) by LL in this thread. So rather than simply whine about it ("do what you do best" - my mother), I'll make a proposition that is concrete, easy to understand, and indented:Except neither of these will happen because LL is too fond of the illusion of control to let either come to pass. I think (a) is simply out of the question from LL's point of view, and (b) is extremely unlikely.

Should LL violate my expectations and act on the matter and opt for (b) I nominate Cybin, not because I know him, not because I think him superhumanly wise, but because he has demonstrated amply that he cares and is capable of being moderate. Should LL take this highly unlikely course, then please compensate the guy in some non-trivial manner (e.g. giving him a sim might be a decent starting point, and would cost LL next to nothing).

But this post is likely a waste of text as I have every confidence that not a damn thing will come of this thread. And under the theory that one big pile of garbage is better than two little piles, along with the somewhat established sentiment of the US courts that mail sent to me becomes my possession, I offer the following note for others to make their own judgments and extrapolations from:

Honestly this whole issue baffles the hell out of me. For the life of me I can't figure out what the egregious problems are that are in such dire need of fixing. Can someone please explain it to me in something more than vague terms? The following questions are adressed to anyone in either the "the forums are broken!" or "I demand consistency!" camps: Is it because your blood boils when a thread gets locked so you can't make your snappy comeback? Is it because threads get moved causing the incredible hardship of having to follow it to a different section of the forum? Is it because people sometimes use bad words that offend your poor adult yet oddly still virginal ears? Is it because you fear you'll have to spend more time discussing rather than dissing? In my opinion if any of those things bother you for more than a nanosecond the problem isn't the forums. It's you. We don't need more moderation or more consistent moderation. We need less self righteousness and less pissing in the wind.

*polite golf clap*

^.^

I think we'd see a lot more constructive discussion in the forums if there was more moderation, and people who create alts just to troll (which there are many here) would be dealt with and removed.

I fully support moving the forums to a site like Stratics, which is a well known and respected gaming forum. My only concern is that most people here wouldn't be able to handle the shock of actually having to follow rules.

Lewis