Do you feel justice is served?

I want this to be a general question so I'll try to hold specifics to a minimum for this first post. My question is whether you think you get justice done when you appeal to the Lindens, what makes you feel you did (or didn't) and what do you feel could be done to either better serve justice OR make you feel as though it's been served?

The fine print:

There are reasons why AR resolution is kept private between plaintiffs and the Lindens. Even if the culprit is the second coming of Genghis Khan, he gets some measure of privacy protection by LL in the course of AR resolution. This has a little to do with our feelings of having justice served, but it's not the whole story.

There are also reasons why abuse investigation has a lag of several days to several weeks (I've had emails informing me that an AR was resolved 2 weeks after it was filed). Workload is a big one, I'm sure. Sometimes the research requires more time and if an interview with the plaintiff is required that may require more time as well. We may go for a long time without hearing that the issue we reported was ever settled.

Speaking for myself, it doesn't help my feeling that justice is served or order maintained when I file an AR on a griefer and watch them return several times over the next week to continue to create havoc -- land tools have improved greatly in the last few updates, but the fact remains that griefers can still drop lag-inducing particle effects on neighboring land or even on YOUR land after they've been banned. Repeated ARs *feel* to me as though they do no good, and of course if I orbit the jerk then I get AR'd too. Any bets on whether LL would have any sympathy for me if I acted to protect my members like that -- even if the asshole deserved it?

But it's easy for us to sit here thousands of miles from the Lab offices and suggest that they hire more people or that they be more Draconian in their enforcement. Both would help, of course, but I have no information that tells me they need more people. All I know is that the Police Blotter is pretty worthless -- I'm turning in multiple ARs per day for harrassment, griefing and vulgar IMs (even now after land tool upgrades) and most of what I see on the blotter are trees that need moving. That doesn't help my sense of justice, either, any more than asking for help in Live Help and getting told to file an AR after I've already filed 4 or 5 on the same griefer. It doesn't help when someone's skin textures are stolen and LL doesn't ban the thief from SL permanently.

To me, the lack of this feeling has encouraged the growth of common-interest groups who are sharing ban lists and the names of IP thieves. They're doing something LL is unwilling or unable to do for us, and I support them 100%. Feelings of powerlessness encourage vigilantism, yes, but they also weld communities together with common goals.

To me, justice means that people who violate the TOS and downgrade the experience of other SL members are found and punished appropriately within 24-36 hours of a complaint being filed. Justice means the punishment matches the crime. But Justice also means that we, the paying members of SL, can see it at work. It means a sense of confidence that wrongs are righted. Too frequently lately, I have not had that feeling.

Have you?

Well I can tell you first no, than second I can tell you I understand why... They aren't here to baby us even though some demand it.. /shrug...
and policing is not their fortay... (spelt right?)

For me to have justice I have to have a true decision that is not biased one way or another.. Wanted to clarfiy my definition of justice.. cause for some it will vary

If that's the case (and I'm not convinced it's true) then I should be free to cage orbit repeated griefers who won't leave our club alone. I should be free to TP them home every time they come within 96m (a capability I have in my HUD) without being AR'd myself.

But I don't. The other possibility - and I forgot to append this to my post - is that sim/club/store owners will eventually just get fed up with the hassle and headache of dealing with constant harrassment and fold up, leaving SL. Then what?

I'm almost to that point now. Someone let in the kiddies, and we know who they are.

I am no way trying to be rude, but the only way for me to explain this is to talk plainly without taking your feelings into account.. kk, so don't take offense...

I have tried on more than one occasion to explain to you ppl how to get them to stop griefing anyone of you... I told you guys that disabling push was a mistake...

The ppl that grief have NO obligations to you, NO respect for you, and therefore you get to be their fun, like a little kid pulling the wings off a fly.. sorry.. but best way to describe it

obviously your responses are not helping, or doing crap to your situation... and in fact some of you are acting like victims and extending the length of time... (want to point out there is a diff between a real victim and someone acting a victim)

if i was you i would make it into a joke, joke around them when they come.. tell em that was a good one or whatever.. if you don't care and treat them like they aren't anything to worry about they will leave you alone.. Now would like to point out ignorning... that is enough to even get me to bug the hell out of someone just for the simple fact..

Ok, there is more but you get the pic..

Also.. I would cage them and harrass the shit out of them... AND if they ar'd me... i would come to the forum and do everything but name them and ridicule them.. hey i would even post screen shots... you know why? cause i know some of them read the forums... and they'll come and get u again.. to save face.. but than they'll look for an easier target... but it is very unlucky that they will ar you... and learn to take it with either grace or with decorum..

but thats just my opnion

Disabling push was a wonderful solution but it was NOT the whole answer because it actually didn't go far enough. And, of course, it has absolutely nothing to do with texture theft which is also rampant.


Forgive me for expecting there to be any order or sense to the world of SL. Excuse me for believing that the destructive behavior of a few dipshits should not be allowed to interfere with the enjoyment of the majority.


Ok, volatile, I like you so I'm going to put this gently: When the fucktard crashes your sim with fire particles and boots 20 people from an event, it's damned hard to joke about it. When they purposely and knowingly steal a $4000L skin texture and sell it as their own, lying/cheating/stealing to make a buck and then don't lose their account, it's real hard to have a sense of humor about it, wouldn't you say?


That's the kind if childish cycle that I'd love to avoid. If justice is to be served, it has to come from the Lindens and it has to have some real teeth to it. That means that people who have their SL fun wasting other people's time need to be gone from SL. It means people who steal and lie and cheat should be permanently banned along with their offspring in perpetuity... ok you get the idea

GRRRRRL, you need to chill out... The only way to deal with greifers/people you don't like is to find them and beat them up IRL.

Well unfortunately it is the way of the world.. There will always ppl who take joy in cruelty.. Im sorry but there is no stopping it, unless you want to attempt selective breeding :/



Cindy, I like you so i'll take much more crap from you than i would some one i don't know thats thinking they are clever, so feel free, i'll listen and take it

Ok, I agree with you it is upsetting to the least when you are minding your own business and these ppl for no reason are being cruel.. I understand and I agree it makes no sense.. Im just trying to let you know of a way to combat it.... I know that alof of ppl think violence is not the answer for anything, and in fact, i honestly avoid it at all cost.. But some people understand nothing but strength... They are NOT playing by your rules Cindy.. They never were and they never will..

If I didn't want to do the violence, I would hire known griefers to get these ppl... Let the fighters do what they do best.. and you keep doing what you do best..

meh punch em in the throat and giggle, really bugs em if you are a girl and not that big

rofl

To hell with that, I have pie and I'm not afraid to use it

We'll have to disagree on that, VWB. This is a controlled virtuality, this SL thing. The time was when you had to prove who you were before you could gain admittance. That added an element of personal accountability that has now been lost. Still, it would be workable without that accountability IF the tools residents have been given allowed us to control our own destinies. But they don't, even with the improvements over the last few weeks. We were left hanging in the breeze because Philip wanted to go international. Our concerns were never taken into account until the damage had been done.

* Banned griefers can still cause mischief from off the property. Their prims and particles still work even if they're banned.

* The only method LL uses to detect texture theft is the date of upload (according to statements they've made). The few investigations I'm aware of have, so far, been pretty inconclusive. On the other hand, peer pressure from merchants' groups has suddenly had more impact on thieves than anyone could have predicted -- being banned from half the stores in SL tends to get people's attention. We won't be seeing electronic watermarks in textures anytime soon, though, if ever.

* In today's Police Blotter, there's a report of someone using an alt to offload $L they made from a scripting exploit. In other words, they STOLE someone else's script and then made a profit. Their punishment? A 7 day suspension. Yeh, that'll leave a mark.

Justice. There can never be enough of it. We sure don't have enough of it right now.

ARs normally don't help much in the short run*. I suppose it's possible that they do eventually; since the process isn't the least bit transparent, there's really no way to know. However, I've never gotten into any trouble for the few occasions that I've been forced to retaliate with force against a griefer, and I know that Mistress actually orbitted one once and then filed an AR against him wherein She flatly stated the action She took and why, and nothing was ever done to Her for it.

Sadly, I can't honestly say with certainty that you won't get into trouble for defending yourself, however -- only that I never have, and neither has anyone I personally know.

*Exception: At least one person I knew, whom I will not name here, could get a response to an AR in basically no time flat. Please, I know this sounds like I'm crying "FIC" here, but I'm just stating a simple fact. Anyway, she never used her influence in a negative way that I'm aware of, and she isn't in SL anymore.

Well SL has stated they've done the little peek into your comp to get a "hard location".. so they can just ban that...

And honestly, I've really really been thinking on the texture theft.. and there is no reasonable way to prevent it... And from what I figured out it would be way to easy to steal it.. So everyone is just kinda messed there...

I honestly think believe there are some things you can not change... And ppl being cruel is one of them... You can't say you didn't have griefers before the open enrollment... I can see how their number increased without a doubt.. But it is not something new... No matter what SL does to get rid of them, there will always be griefers...

There is little justice to be found in the current AR system. For example, I see today there are 2 suspensions on the police blotter for distributing a real life pic of a member, and I know others have been reported for doing the same thing but received no sanction whatsoever; not even a warning.

I know this because the woman who did this passed real life pictures to me, along with copies of intimate chats, but when confronted by the subject of the privacy invasion she blamed me in order to save her own ass. I know with absolute certainty that chat logs and history are not checked by LL because I received a warning for passing out real life information when I was actually the recipient.

I AR'd her but she was not scanctioned, even though I had the chats and pictures she had passed to me and could prove my innocence. I appealed my own unfair sanction but received no response from LL and no correction. The member who submitted the AR contacted LL to withdraw his complaint upon learning the truth, and still, even after the withdrawal of the AR due to mistake, no correction and no justice.

I drone on about evenhanded enforcement and application of the rules because I know how injustice arising from disregard, or favoritism feels.

There is a current thread providing notice of an exploit that has elicited a gracious thank you reply from one Linden, but just one week ago a member who warned of another exploit received a harsh three day suspension.

The uneven application of the rules, and erratic issuance of sanctions, results in injustice, not justice.

What would you consider reasonable justice?

Serving justice is not fun ergo will not be a forthcoming feature of Second Life.

I wonder if there is any central oversight on TOS enforcement? It sure doesn't feel like it to me. I see inconsistency instead.


I didn't see the previous post that resulted in the suspension, so I can't compare. I felt like the one today wasn't too enlightening other than giving general directions on what it does. (Caveat: I'm not a script monkey, as much as I try ).


Thank you, katy, that's the point I've been trying very awkwardly to make here. It's always hard to be fair -- my local police department gave me a $100 ticket for making a left turn into the wrong lane when I see people doing it ALL the time. I realize how hard it is, but in SL I think the invisibility of the enforcement process only makes our perception worse. We only see 25 reports on the blotter, and we only get a "AR resolved" email when something's investigated. We don't get a lot of transparency, all we see (some of us anyway) are the same buttholes coming back to pull the same stunts over and over without any consequences.


Before open enrollment, we probably filed one or two ARs per week. Since then the average has shot up to as many as 20-25 per week. Granted, things have settled slightly in the last couple of weeks thanks to the Hash/ban but it's still way beyond any reasonable level for some of us. But what I'm taking from your comments, Volatile, is that we shouldn't do anything? Sorry, I don't work that way. It's my job to protect my members and make sure they enjoy their visit - otherwise we won't be around very long. I will do what I have to do to effect that end, even if it means I risk being AR'd myself for taking up the slack that LL doesn't seem to care about.

No, I am saying do something, hunt them down.. If i felt strongly I find out who the top griefer groups were, contact them and pay them linden to grief the others..

I'm not going to encourage griefers in any form. What you're suggesting would be a setup for extortion. That's not a good answer.

Ok, than get a group of your friends that like to shot things.. or like to poke at ppl a bit..

There is never justice from LL or in SL whatsoever... that's why i recommend not contributing to the world... that way you'll never have an issue

forte*


(hey...she DID ask)

Your first suggestion(s) seemed more appropriate to me. The best possible defense against a griefer is to welcome the griefer.

The word "griefer" is really informative and telling in this regard. If the griefer sees no apparent -grief- being caused, there is no point in him/her continuing. He/she will move on to the next unsuspecting target until some actual grief is encountered.

I know this might not apply to all situations -- certainly a team of griefers utterly devastating a popular sim is not the kind of thing that can be beat with a "ha ha, funny" response -- but smaller-scale griefing is absolutely best handled this way.

then you can go , we don't need you

I have expereienced this personally, only it was my address and email address.

I agree no justice is served to our expectations and sadly it never will. Today I experienced one of the most disturbing events to happen to me in SL. For the past three or four days this one person comes to Weapons Testing Sandbox and starts shooting at everybody with some sort of gun, either knockin you across the sim or it ends up lagging so bad it causes the sim to come to its knees.

So lastnight I happened apon a group of people gathered around this person trying to explain to him what he was doing and the only thing he could respond with is "I am testing my weapons. This is a testing zone right?" So then when people have had enough of his mouth and boot him in the ass, he runs to one specific Linden and has her come and attempt to intimidate us into leaving him alone. Well it worked at first then the minute she leaves hes right back at it. Fast forward to today 230pm SLT same person at weapons testing doing same thing except now he has found a new free gun that creates particle lag and just out right annoying! We calmly tell him to please stop that he is lagging the sim, he responds with shooting the gun and sang thats not making me lag! After about 20 minutes of trying to explain this to the guy I kick him to the edge of the sim. he yells back to us that said Linden is on her way there to "make us wish we had never met him". Linden shows up turns off push and attempts to make peace yet this guy starts shooting his gun again saying look no lag see see see. Mind you this is all taking place while the sim cleanup is taking place and all the scripts that had added to the lagg was getting deleted.

My friend and I decide hey we are going to go somewhere else and lo-and-behold here comes this guy saying Im calling linden back your attacking me. And everytime we go away from the guy he follows and says just wait linden is on her way here! So ten minutes goes by this guy leaves us alone finally and all of a sudden he pops up on my radar coming towards us slowly.

I add the guy to my security hud and next thing I know Im getting yelled at by linden for "attacking " this guy in a no damage zone, yet he is now right in front of me taunting me so I hit him with one of my hud weapons and here comes the most disturbing part. Linden says you orbit this guy again I will remove you from the grid! I reply with fine do as you seem fit but you best remove this pricks sorry ass for stalking me down.

Fastforward 45 minutes later and same guy is being annoying again and this time not only is he griefing me and my friends but he is in the middle of a group of people having a good time running his mouth about this and that. He then calls live help and announces to everybody he has a live helper on her way to come and "deal" with us!

When the live helper shows up she acesses the situation and observes the griefers behavior and makes a judgement call and kinda ignores him and suggests he leave the area seeing as how he isnt wanted in that area. Not only does that piss him off because he couldnt get everybody "dealt" with he then claims he was done testing and was leaving.

We all had a good laugh witht he live helper asking to be shot and several of us did just that she laughed and then poofed. We all thought good hes gone....no I hear somebody shout noob stop shooting the sumogun its lagging the sim!

And here comes the stupid noob right back at us and then starts yelling at me to leave him alone! I was talking to a friend and was like WTF! I told the kid look man you followed me to here not the other way around I was talking to this persona and not even paying you any attention so be gone with yourself.


Finally he is forced to leave cause around 20 people orbited him.


The most disturbing thing is that I was told if I orbited this guy again I was going to be removed. Yet he was being left there to grief and cause all kinds of hell!

ty! lol