Neualtenburg Constitution

I like that. Open to all but restrictions on who is admitted -- especially during the project phase. If any of you know some good low-prim architects, let me know. I have to get started on the Castle.

~Ulrika~

I know many people that can say yay and I'll vouch for 100 individuals this evening ...I'm sure ace will vouch for them as well...but oh yeah....now they have to be interesting..I guess when we find the interesting ones a new criteria will pop up

So the criteria is interesting architects now?

Who says yay or nay?

What criteria is there for citizen ship exactly?

If you read my post --you will notice that OPINION is in CAPS so you would not miss it.
But my OPINION isn't worth fiddle farts since I am only one person. I can actually *gasp* set aside my OPINION for what I think is the good of the experiment.

Talen... "Interested" individuals... Check out hooked on Phonics... I heard it was good.

This link is for the Vancouver Community Network. Is Vancouver also doomed?

Just my L$0.02, since Kendra has already answered...

Talen, if both you and Ace can vouch for 100 people interested in becoming citizens... I can only say WOW, I had never thought there were so many people suddenly interested in Neualtenburg! I regret to inform that in my case I would only be able to vouch for a very, very small group of, say, 2 or 3 people among the 150 or so that I know in SL (uh, meaning I have their calling cards and (ir)regularly talk to) Well. Hundred interested people! That's amazing work you've done to spread the word that fast!

Ulrika mentioned that we should cap the population of Neualtenburg at around 150. So perhaps it's already time to expand the project to a second sim!

Now, to your questions...

I originally proposed that every citizen submits a citizenship request, say, to the Academy, and there will be a "formal meeting" where the rules and laws of Neualtenburg are presented to them. The 2 patrons should attend that meeting as well. The future citizen will agree to abide by the Constitution and the laws, and also show to understand his/her duties. Then the future citizen will present their case: explaining why he/she wants to be a citizen, what he/she thinks that can contribute to the society, give examples of previous work, etc. (ex. "I already sell beer steins, and would very much like to do the same in Neualtenburg" or "I already host events elsewhere, and they're a big success, I would like to do the same in Neualtenburg". The Academy will adjourn the meeting, get together, and accept the petition for granting citizenship - or not.

What should be the criteria? Hard to define them objectively beyond what I've stated: a general willingness to contribute something positive to it. Actually, this was the original criteria to be a part of Neualtenburg. Ulrika sums it up as "interested citizens".

In a way, this reminds me of the very same way the Mentor group is organized. To be able to host Mentor events, you have to belong to the group. To enter the group, you have to apply to Char Linden, be "older" than 30 days in-world, have not been subjected to abuse reports or having been banned or something like that, accept to abide by all the groups' rules (as well as ToS and Community Rules), and have a willingness to help other users, and host a Mentor event at least once per month. Char reviews your application and accepts it or not. If she doesn't accept it, it's final. I have seen this happening with some friends of mine.

The only unanswered question is "can you appeal if your citizenship was refused?". That's a good one. I have no experience in how this is dealt in RL, except for memberships in some organizations. Some of them allow the Board to approve membership or not, and if the membership is refused, you can appeal to the General Assembly, which usually meets yearly. We could have a similar system in Neualtenburg. The Academy will accept new citizens, but if their application is refused, these may appeal to the Representative Assembly, which should host one session per term to review citizenship applications. What do you think?

Note that in Neualtenburg - unlike RL - you can LOSE citizenship

First of all "interesting was used in another thread and I chose to bring it here" Perhaps you should learn to form and comprehend your own thoughts before attempting to attack others.

Yes it is....especially if darkwood is bringing it up.

Ha ha! Poor DarkWood. I hear for a time their computers were spontaneously bursting into flames.

~Ulrika~

Well lets see another one wanting to play footsy. I have over 400 cards I personally know a hell of a lot of people and communicate with at least 40 -100 weekly. I can personally vouch for them and believe it or not there is a GREAT amount of interest in the project and not as you would assume to make it fail. I regularly talk to many people and I am very active in SL with many different groups.



Maybe we should actually purchase a whole sim and not have any linden constraints...I would kick in money and tier. We would have more prims and we could stop playing around with it and do it.


So we should submit the canidate to the academy which is hand chosen and doesn't necessarily meet the peoples approval? What criteria do they use? Will they base their opinions on fact or percieved threat?




I've heard both interested and interesting...either or I know at least one griefer that is interested and interesting...think he'd be let in? Not that I want him here but if we deny people what are we saying?




This isn't the mentor group and I doubt Char is denying them on the basis that she thinks they will start trouble.



Not bad but I think this would be a waste of the representitves already short time. If we have no restrictions then its not a problem.

NOte That in America you can lose your citizenship....but those that have have usually been convicted of heinous crimes. So what is the criteria for losing citizenship in our lil town?

Thats only when they weren't giving eachother nuclear wedgies

As a member of the Moderate People's Party here are two things that I very much believe in for this projekt:



So while I fully believe in protecting the rights of the individual, I do not think one individual should be allowed to hurt the entire community. The community must come first with the protection of the individual included within that community.

That said, then yes, I do feel there should be *some* requirements to be counted a citizen of Neualtenburg. Just as how in the US we have requirements for people to become citizens of the country, I look at Neualtenburg as its own "country" within SL, and we have a right to want to protect our "country".

My personal belief is that the projekt should be open to all that are truely interested in the success of the projekt. Even those that wish to be the "unruly" types so that they can help us test our laws and see where we may need to make changes. There is a difference to me in someone coming into the Projekt that wants to see it succeed but that wants to do so by testing limts, and someone coming in that actually wants to see the Projekt fail and will do what they can to destroy it. If we have laws in place to help with this, then we should not see failure based on these "griefers".

I like the requirements mentioned by Gwyneth above. I think it is something we can certainly work with and fine tune as needed. I do like the thought of person being able to make an appeal. I don't honestly think this is going to be needed, but better to have it in place just in case.

We are still in the phase of moving this project from "project leader run" to "government run", so we are going to have some things happening now that will be changing once the government is in place. I'm hesitant to pass too too many laws before we have our constitution in place and have our government in semi-working order. If we have some flexible basics now, we can always fine tune them as we come more into our own.

Those are my thoughts.

Sorry, you have to explain that to me - English is not my first language. What does it mean?



The usage of "you" in "not as you would assume to make it fail" is also hard for me to understand. Are you talking about me or someone else? Uh, from what you wrote in this thread, and taking into account that you are part of the Provisional Government, I'm assuming that all the people you have talked to are interested that the project will WORK, not FAIL? Sorry, I'm confused again.

Anyway, what I said was that I'm really, really impressed by the amount of people you've talked to, and the interest they have in Neualtenburg! That's great news, Talen! You see, I only heard about the project a few months ago, when Ulrika posted it on the forums, and, if you look them up, there was an huge amount of people completely against Ulrika's ideas and a very, very tiny minority that showed some interest.

Then, very quickly, a number of people turned up to make the project possible - so, this reinforced my idea that forums are actually a bad place to discuss these things. Personal contact seems to be the trick!

And now, all of a sudden, I see that there are almost 4 times as many people interested in Neualtenburg, and wanting to join the project! Well, that is wonderful news indeed! Again, I only meant that I personally haven't had any success, I've just managed to grab a handful of interested people, and nothing more...

Great job!


Perhaps this would be the way to go for the next city!


Uh, I don't know, Talen. First, what is "meeting the people's approval"? I certainly disagree with a lot of people here, and I would expect that there are some people that would prefer to eject me as well from the group. However, like in RL, we aren't expected to "go along" with each other. Just to respect each other's views, and express them in appropriate ways, according to the rules set in place. And that's about it.

I would think that there are few objective criteria for citizenship...

What is "perceived threat"? What can be objectively used as a measure of "perceived threat"? I met the other day someone who was banned from SL for shooting a newbie - however, he's a skilled worker in Neualtenburg and has been doing an excellent work, for free, for us to enjoy. Is that "perceived threat"? The "fact" is that this guy is helping us out and building amazing stuff! So I would certainly want to have him in Neualtenburg (the question is moot, since he already is but you see my point), despite his, uh, "criminal record". So it's hard to judge on "perceived threat", since it can be misleading...


That is something I don't understand. You mean that a griefer - someone really interested in just destroying the Neualtenburg project - is interested in becoming a citizen, and you're asking if we should allow that to happen?

What is the purpose, testing if our "law system" works in a fair way? I can understand that it would be interesting as an exercise. Like having hackers break in into a system, to find the exploits and patch them? Is that your idea?


Oh yes, she does exactly that But nevermind, as you said, this isn't the Mentor group. I just mentioned it because it's one case with which I'm familiar where there are both objective and subjective rules for accepting an application, and you have to show your continuing support to remain in the group. Every week a few are expelled because they either did not comply with the rules or simply lost interest.


That's true.


We haven't set those criteria yet, but I would certainly go towards something similar to what happens in SL with the ToS/Community Rules. First, they would get a warning. Then, they would be banned from Neualtenburg, but still remain as group members. And on a third offense, expelled from the group AND permanently banned from Neualtenburg.

However, I would believe that this would happen only within the terms of the legal system as a "last measure"...

I think citizenship issues should be decided by the Guild. They are the ones who built the city. Want to change the citizenship requirement? Help build the city!

Empower the guild! They are the reason you have a city to debate about.

Infact I propose that the constitution recognize the Guild as the organization that sets citizenship requirements.

It was a joke...meaning you wanted to play with me too. As for english not being your first language...well you seem to have a better grasp of it than most Americans do






I meant that most people I've talked to aren't interested just because they would like to see it fail. Of all the people I have talked to quite a few are very interested but they don't want to join just watch...others I know would like this to fail.



There were and still are an overwhelming majority that are against it but lately I've seen those that are against it at least defending it ...some last night in the thread asking for Linden intervention in the General forum.


I think you're right but the forums will definately give you every opinion possible.




A handful can sometimes be better than 100...When I made thast comment I was saying " ok if the requirement is just having 2 patrons submit a person as a prospect then I can easily do that." would all of those people be the best possible crossection of SL...maybe but doubtful.





I think eventually it has to be done as to not be under any linden constraints.




Meeting the peoples approval means just that ...if citizens are to be chosen how doe one person or body determine that they are whats right for the city and or project. We shouldn't go along with eachother we should discuss and debate our views to get the best possible situation...I may argue with you but I think you belong here and even if we argue here I certainly wouldn't take that in world as I think none of us should. I like everyone here for some odd reason




I think a percieved threat in this case is someone who the powers that be think will be detrimental to the project and or city. They percieve that this individual or individuals will cause unrest and keep us from our goals.



I'm saying we shouldn't turn away anyone no matter what their intentions are ...we shoiuld be confident that if a situation arises that our laws will cover us. Again just because someone could do damage doesn't mean they will.



No, My idea is ...if we have the laws in place we shouldnt need to worry that someone may cause chaos as we will have the means to stop them with the law. The laws should be tested as well or we won't be able to gauge their effectiveness.



As some will lose interest eventually with our project as well. I don't think we should have any rules other than the laws which we will make.



I agree...I think this will have to be one of the senates first duties ...making laws to protect the city and its people. I see the philisophical branch as the one to actually make judgement and set punishments.

The guild , the representitve branch, and the philisophical branch should all be involved in this decision as it effects us all.

Just a few thoughts on citizenship....

First, no country has truly open citizenship. Every country has some sort of system of naturalization. At the very least, countries tend to insist that naturalized citizens not be opposed to the very existence of the country itself. Of course, there's great variation among citizenship requirements. And plenty of undue burdens are placed on potential citizens of countries like the US, in part ostensibly in order to assure their loyalty. So I guess, as a starting point, I'd say that there's nothing unusual about having some set of requirements for citizenship to a country. In fact, NOT having requirements would be unusual. But what those requirements should be is far from obvious, and there's plenty of room for disagreement.

Secondly, I think the whole country metaphor that I started with is a bit off. We are not a country. Obviously we're not a RL country. But we're also not a SL country. To begin with, there are really no such things as SL countries. And we're not even very country like in a lot of ways. For example, compare this constitution-making process with the constitution-making process of an actual country, say, South Africa after the fall of apartheid, or France when the Third Republic collapsed. In such cases, there is already a population in place. Somehow, mechanisms need to be put in place to assure that that population accepts the legitimacy of the new constitutional system. Or to put it another way, what the country itself consists of is not really in question. If I'm drawing up a French constitution and I hate the citizens of Marseilles and all that they stand for, there's just nothing I can do about it. One way or another I have to incorporate them in my plans, and in a way that they are at least satisfied enough with that they will not revolt. I can imagine a process like this taking place in SL if the Lindens declared that each sim had to have a government. Residents of well populated sims would then have to sit down and come to some sort of agreement. These folk may have had little to do with each other beforehand, but now they'd have to find common ground.

Neualtenburg is very different. And I think we haven't been very effective at communicating this. Neualternburg is, simply put an intentional community, that is it's a coming together of like-minded people who want to build something from the ground up. The idea(s) come first, then the population. Don't think France or South Africa. Think New Harmony or Brook Farm. Of course another word for intentional community is "commune." I generally don't like using "commune" because in common parlance it has a very specific '60s referent that make it seem quaint and timebound. But actually, communes are a very old concept. And, in particular, they are a medieval one (though not exactly in the sense of intentional communities). So perhaps "commune" is the most appropriate word we can choose to describe Neualtenburg. Clearly intentional communities are not designed to represent the population at large, or any potential population. Instead, they are designed to try to put into practice a particular theoretical program. Kind of like Neualtenburg.

I began this post by noting that all countries limit citizenship in one way or another. But communes do so even more rigidly, and they do so for the very reasons that those arguing in favor of restrictions say we need to in Neualtenburg: in order to preserve the mission of the community and prevent its erosion by the larger, sorrounding society that, almost by definition, is not interested in adopting its schemes. And that's another way in which we're more commune than republic...our government will be a quasi-government; we are still surrounded by -- and part of -- the delightful (and I mean that) semi-anarchy of SL.

So I feel that it is both reasonable and prudent for us to require that those who want to become citizens believe in our project. Of course, the devil is in the details. I would urge us to adopt some meaningful definition of commitment to the project which is as minimal as possible. We benefit from a diversity of competing views about how Neualtenburg should be run. At the least, agreement to abide by our constitution and other laws seems like a requirement. Beyond that we need to think carefully. I also think that that it would be best to broaden the decision-making in this regard as much as possible, that is, whether or not someone should be allowed to join should be a fairly democratic decision of the citizens of Neualtenburg at large. Perhaps that suggests that the Senate (the most democratic body...and the one that is actually represents the citizenry itself) should have the responsibility for actually making decisions about who is admitted, though perhaps the rules for doing so should be drawn up by the Academy.

At any rate, just my $.02 about a complicated topic.

I can very much agree with this! Though I am also open to all three branches being responsible for deciding our requirements.

PS: Great to see another very active person in the projekt. I look forward to meeting you in world Phineas.

Ahh. I'm basking in the glow of astute analysis and well-directed suggestion.

Would you like to take a stab at definition of commitment for the project and a procedure for admitting new members? It sounds like you've taken the first step.

~Ulrika~

What I have been reading is that the powers that be would like to limit citizenship to those that share the same goals and objectives, and would bring useful skills to further those ends.

Like I said before, if that's what you want, then go for it. The Costume Party won't stand in your way. But we will make light at any attempt to infer that this is anything more than a social organization, with fancy titles that make it look like an exercise in self-government.

The only criteria for citizenship that I don't have a problem with is the requirement that citizens accept the Constitutional and legal principles upon which the city is founded. Self-government is a social contract between the governed and those that govern, and requiring somebody to sign up to that social contract seems reasonable to me.

But beyond that, there should be NO pre-conditions on citizenship.

The Costume Party had to come in kicking and screaming and airing laundry in broader public forums in order to be granted the key to the city. I am only making an educated guess based on what was said, but I imagine that the reason was that the Costume Party was viewed as something that might not coincide with the agenda of others.

If a group of individuals wants to come in and join the city, but change the architectural character to one of Goths and Vampires set in 24th Century space travelling vehicles, is the City going to beat them away while dressed in lederhosen, saying "No, No, No.... this is our toy and you can't play with it."

If that's what you all want, then by all means go for it. I don't have a problem with it.

But please don't try to drape this all in the mantle of self-government if you do, because its nothing more than a social club in that case.

I know of no government that denies citizenship based solely on differing political, architectural, or aesthetic views.

- Ace

*blows Satchmo a big, fat, hairy, kiss*

Feel better after saying all that?

- Ace

If by same goals you mean the survival of Neualtenburg as a City? U betcha.



Go ahead and do what you feel is right. As you've noticed nobody is standing in your way.




I don't see that there are any other conditions being presented.




I would argue that the Costume Party entered as a rude and petulant crybaby --but that's my opinion.



Fine by me, actually, But I imagine such change wouldn't be instantaneous given the nature of how The Guild works.

Also --they'd pretty much need to stick with making it snow-themed, as that is what the Lindens approved. In fact --LL approved the creation of a medieval/modern bavarian village --so they'd actually need to clear the whole thing with the Lindens first.

They'd probably be better off starting their own City from scratch.



Because you say so? LOL



I don't know any that don't.

You were right about one thing, Ace.
You're very silly.

I said my piece. Now do your thing.

I'll respond as I see fit in the spirt of the Costume Party's platform, which is to parody, create mischief, and enjoy unadulterated debauchery as legitimate forms of political discouse.

Have fun kids.

- Ace

Are you kidding me? Been to China lately?