Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Valley Beautification

Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-30-2005 10:40
As part of the in-forum Guild meeting, our next topic is to discuss the state of the valley.

I haven't looked closely but it appears that some of the structures might not be adhering to covenant guidelines. If this is the case, one could submit a request for an exemption or rebuild the structure.

Also, it looks like in preparation for the expo, the land was heavily terraformed in one (or two) spots, which is against the valley covenant. I just wanted to mention it so we can return the land back to normal after the expo build is removed.

On a related topic, I think I've come up with a rule of thumb when a member of the Guild needs permission to build something from the RA. The rule is, if the build affects the layout or performance of the city, it should be approved by the RA first (e.g., Tinies City, Expo, etc.). Otherwise modifications of the city structures, roads, street lamps, and so on shouldn't require approval.

Finally, I love that Sudane laid the streets for the valley. The down side is that the valley is very difficult to successfully lay down roads in because of the changes in slope and its roughness. I was wondering if anyone had any ideas for a different type of street that might work better (slightly curved perhaps). Also, I'd be willing to do some experimental repaving (since I paved the city roads) to see if we can get a good country road. A slightly elevated road might work.

Additionally, I'd like to see things like meter markers, directional signs at intersections, fences, and better interaction of builds with the road. What ideas do you have?

Valley
Issues:
  1. Adherence to covenant
  2. City authority to build or modify covenant
  3. Valley streets

Discussion:
  1. Are structure in violation of covenant?
  2. Terraforming in valley possibly a violation
  3. Improving the street with fences, walls, and markers


~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
09-30-2005 10:53
Valley
Issues:
  1. Adherence to covenant
  2. City authority to build or modify covenant


    Yes -this is a problem, and I'd like to know what authority according to the constitution, the guild has for enforcing the covenent. This should be discussed by the SC and not the RA.

  3. Valley streets


I'd like to have a go at designing a dirt road texture( hiking trails?)
and a different cobblestone for valley roads. Curved roads would be desirable and are easily achieved if terraforming would be allowed to "sink" the roads.
  1. Improving the street with fences, walls, and markers


also sitting benches, waterfountains, and the occasional outhouse might be fun.
_____________________
Garnet Psaltery
Walking on the Moon
Join date: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 913
09-30-2005 10:53
From: Ulrika Zugzwang

Also, it looks like in preparation for the expo, the land was heavily terraformed in one (or two) spots, which is against the valley covenant. I just wanted to mention it so we can return the land back to normal after the expo build is removed.


This was always my intention. I was asked to make a staged area in the valley, big enough to accommodate Dianne's dome and (as I understood it) other structures around it. The only way was to do as I did with the land but I was keenly aware of the depth of change (quite literally). Having said that, I rather like the look of the valley as it is now. I had thought that the Schloss would be right next to it (going by the plot details) and so I terraformed so as to give it a nice promontory.

Anyway this is all just a matter of opinion which can be easily argued against.
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-30-2005 11:01
From: Garnet Psaltery
This was always my intention. I was asked to make a staged area in the valley, big enough to accommodate Dianne's dome and (as I understood it) other structures around it. The only way was to do as I did with the land but I was keenly aware of the depth of change (quite literally).
No problem at all, I like the way the RA is able to temporarily override the covenants for special events. I really appreciate all the great work you and all the other Expo artisans did for the city. :)

From: someone
Having said that, I rather like the look of the valley as it is now. I had thought that the Schloss would be right next to it (going by the plot details) and so I terraformed so as to give it a nice promontory.
The Schloss is being built up in the center of the city just West of the Marktplatz on the tall hill.

From: someone
Anyway this is all just a matter of opinion which can be easily argued against.
You opinion matters! Since you live in the valley you should have the most say. :)

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
09-30-2005 11:16
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
As part of the in-forum Guild meeting, our next topic is to discuss the state of the valley....
My two cents would be similar to the others.

While it was shocking to me when first seen, the terraforming of the valley area looks just wonderful to me now. At the moment I would say just leave it as it is since it's not that different anyway, but I am not totally bound to that opinion. If we did leave it, the central flat area could be a great spot for other public events that we are bound to have in the future (just a suggestion), unless we need that land for residents of course.

I absolutely love the roads/trails that Sudane put in, it completely transforms the place. I agree with Ulrika however that a few more signs and roadmarkers might be in order. (I think Sudane put out some of these already?)

I like the idea of curved pathways, but I always thought it was not very possible to do it, perhaps Kendra could give a demo of what she is thinking some time, or make a curved section and leave it in place so we could see what it would look like?

Also if we are having this meeting inthe forum, perhaps (if it can be done delicately) we should have a post about exactly how or which structures there are, that don't conform to the guidelines. If I remember correctly, everything in that area is suposed to be Medieaval, but I cant think of specific buildings that cross the line too much. (also not sure where that "line" is).

:)
_____________________
.
black
art furniture & classic clothing
===================
Black in Neufreistadt
Black @ ONE
Black @ www.SLBoutique.com


.
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
09-30-2005 11:24
From: Dianne Mechanique
I like the idea of curved pathways, but I always thought it was not very possible to do it, perhaps Kendra could give a demo of what she is thinking some time, or make a curved section and leave it in place so we could see what it would look like?



I've recently purchased some land outside the city walls and will do some temporary "roadwork" on it to show what I have in mind --it will require some very minor terraforming however to build up "banks" on the edge of the roadway.
_____________________
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-30-2005 11:48
From: Dianne Mechanique
While it was shocking to me when first seen, the terraforming of the valley area looks just wonderful to me now. At the moment I would say just leave it as it is since it's not that different anyway, but I am not totally bound to that opinion. If we did leave it, the central flat area could be a great spot for other public events that we are bound to have in the future (just a suggestion), unless we need that land for residents of course.
The terraforming is currently temporary as it's for a special event (and not permitted by the covenant). However, if we would like to change the covenant to allow for a terraformed portion of the valley, the Guild could craft the modification and send it to the RA for ratification (since the covenant is law, it must go through the RA). Personally, I'd like to preserve the gentle slope of the valley like we tried to do in the city. However, I do not live there, so my desires are secondary to those that do. :)

Also, there is no city-owned land in the valley aside from the roads and area under the bridge. Thus this land is either unsold or owned by a resident. In either case the city would have to modify the plot's covenant to make the change permanent. Here is the section of interest from the covenant:
Environment, Terraforming
  1. The general lay of the land must be preserved.
  2. Land must transition smoothly and naturally between neighboring lots.
  3. The general smoothing of land is not permitted.
  4. Visibly etching out land to accomodate structures is not permitted.

From: someone
I absolutely love the roads/trails that Sudane put in, it completely transforms the place. I agree with Ulrika however that a few more signs and roadmarkers might be in order. (I think Sudane put out some of these already?)
Yes. The meandering roads are part of the original city design. The land for the roads is city owned, so I encourage citizens to make creative use of it (bales of hay, broken wagon wheels, fences). :)

On the subject of roads I must say that they are very difficult to pull off. I spent hours on them in the city. Kendra's trick is to make the road deep so it never looks like it's hovering over the ground. Additionally, depending on what one has their terrain resolution set to and their distance from the ground, the roads can appear to sometimes be above ground and other times below ground. Finally, we do have the option of slightly terraforming the ground underneath the roads to smooth things out, making it easier for our boxy prims appear as a convincing road.

What I like about Sudane's texture is that the stone appears to have wagon-wheel grooves in them. Is this correct Sudane and if so can we have copies of the texture? :D

From: someone
Also if we are having this meeting in the forum, perhaps (if it can be done delicately) we should have a post about exactly how or which structures there are, that don't conform to the guidelines. If I remember correctly, everything in that area is suposed to be Medieaval, but I cant think of specific buildings that cross the line too much. (also not sure where that "line" is).
You know, I'm not sure what permanent structures might be in violation of the covenant myself. I just thought we'd generally discuss the state of the valley and how we should use it and terraform it for events.

The issue to me is whether folks in the valley want a tight enforcement of the covenant to keep the look of an idyllic valley community (I like a very tight enforcement of the covenant in the walled city) and how they feel about temporary large builds popping up near their structures in the valley.

From my perspective, being a member of the SC, it's my job to enforce the covenant and to explore how we balance the needs of citizens, special Guild projects, and RA ratification of temporary or modified covenants. This discussion is to help me do that before things go Tinies City on us. ;)

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-30-2005 11:51
From: Kendra Bancroft
I've recently purchased some land outside the city walls and will do some temporary "roadwork" on it to show what I have in mind --it will require some very minor terraforming however to build up "banks" on the edge of the roadway.
Certainly. Terraforming should be permitted to naturally and logically accommodate structures. Perhaps we can put that in the covenant?

If there's anything in the covenant that's too restrictive or doesn't make sense we should discuss it.

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
09-30-2005 11:53
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
TWhat I like about Sudane's texture is that the stone appears to have wagon-wheel grooves in them. Is this correct Sudane and if so can we have copies of the texture? :D



I'll give you a copy of the texture, Zug --it's one of mine that I gave to Sudane so she could make roads.
_____________________
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
09-30-2005 12:00
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
The terraforming is currently temporary as it's for a special event (and not permitted by the covenant). However, if we would like to change the covenant to allow for a terraformed portion of the valley, the Guild could craft the modification and send it to the RA for ratification (since the covenant is law, it must go through the RA). Personally, I'd like to preserve the gentle slope of the valley like we tried to do in the city. However, I do not live there, so my desires are secondary to those that do. :)...
It seems so far we are all pretty much in agreement on all of this stuff. :)
Kendra, where is your "outside the walls" land? In front of the gates?
_____________________
.
black
art furniture & classic clothing
===================
Black in Neufreistadt
Black @ ONE
Black @ www.SLBoutique.com


.
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
09-30-2005 12:01
From: Dianne Mechanique
It seems so far we are all pretty much in agreement on all of this stuff. :)
Kendra, where is your "outside the walls" land? In front of the gates?


yes --to the left of the Altenburg Tor as you enter :)
_____________________
Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
09-30-2005 12:11
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
On a related topic, I think I've come up with a rule of thumb when a member of the Guild needs permission to build something from the RA. The rule is, if the build affects the layout or performance of the city, it should be approved by the RA first (e.g., Tinies City, Expo, etc.). Otherwise modifications of the city structures, roads, street lamps, and so on shouldn't require approval.


Before I give input on the rest, I wanted to address this point. I personally think this makes perfect sense. It also seems to be about the way the RA has been handling builds thus far. The Guild sets the standards though (look, feel, any teraforming, etc.). The RA just makes decisions based on how it will affect city performance and if a build is needed by the city and therefore the city should commision the guild to build the whatever. :)
Sudane Erato
Grump
Join date: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 413
09-30-2005 12:47
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
Also, there is no city-owned land in the valley aside from the roads and area under the bridge. Thus this land is either unsold or owned by a resident. In either case the city would have to modify the plot's covenant to make the change permanent.
I'd just like to re-inforce this point with some details. The Expo platform currently sits primarily on Eugene's land. Although the deed transfer has not yet happened, he's been paying for it since the beginning. Since the transfer has not happened, the modifications were possible.

Also, the Expo merchant's area sits entirely on a section of the City's prim-lots, which we will be needing soon for their intended use.

Those two steps, transfering Eugene's land to him, and selling off the remaining prim lots, will remove the City's ability to terraform, or in any way modify, those parcels.

Just for information.


Sudane
Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
09-30-2005 13:16
Re: road terraforming, I'd think something a bit like... well, my main experience is what my friends in Eldora sim, the Squidsoft Collective, have done on their land. While Eldora is a snow sim and thus a bit more forgiving in terraforming - you can pile snow up in ways earth and grass wouldn't - the way roads are done there seem like it would work in Neualten.

The "road" area is a lowered dip, with the actual road prims laid overtop. This helps to combat the "boxy floating road" phenomenon, and I've found you can sometimes use non-box prims to good effect on slopes, depending on texture and how it stretches, etc.

Also, re: sticking fences alongside the road, I had considered using either some ironwork such as is on the top of my tower or some shrubbery to line the road. If anyone would like to have such things on a more widespread basis, I would gladly donate the shrubs (they're free to use, and quite nice) - the ironwork textures are Foolish Frost's, though I wouldn't mind putting down fences myself if need be.
_____________________
Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
09-30-2005 13:18
From: Aliasi Stonebender
Re: road terraforming, I'd think something a bit like... well, my main experience is what my friends in Eldora sim, the Squidsoft Collective, have done on their land. While Eldora is a snow sim and thus a bit more forgiving in terraforming - you can pile snow up in ways earth and grass wouldn't - the way roads are done there seem like it would work in Neualten.



exactly.
_____________________
Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
09-30-2005 13:50
From: Kendra Bancroft
exactly.


Yes, it occurred to me that what you said was about it as I was typing it, but what the hey,. electrons are cheap. :D

Opinions on the fencework/hedges idea? I could go ahead and lay some out on the border of my land and the road to give y'all the basic idea.
_____________________
Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-30-2005 14:33
From: Pendari Lorentz
Before I give input on the rest, I wanted to address this point. I personally think this makes perfect sense. It also seems to be about the way the RA has been handling builds thus far. The Guild sets the standards though (look, feel, any teraforming, etc.). The RA just makes decisions based on how it will affect city performance and if a build is needed by the city and therefore the city should commision the guild to build the whatever. :)
Excellent. One of the things that is left out of the Constitution (on purpose) is the precise division of authority between different branches. As we decide upon these division and as they change over time, we should codify them as law. I'll write this up as a bill and place it in the RA meeting thread.

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Eugene Pomeray
Neualtenburger
Join date: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 186
09-30-2005 15:15
Frankly i think the valley area needs some help. I do like Ulrika's idea of raising the roads a bit, and adding street signs, etc.

Also i would suggest a Neualtenburg Land Starter Kit.
- new members of Neualtenburg will be given a land starter kit (similar to the ones in SL)
- the kit would include premade homes made for the valley.
- People will be able to chose between premade neualtenburg buildings and building their own home.
_____________________
Visit Neualtenburg: Second Life's First Democratic Republic


Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-01-2005 00:00
From: Eugene Pomeray
Frankly i think the valley area needs some help. I do like Ulrika's idea of raising the roads a bit, and adding street signs, etc.

Also i would suggest a Neualtenburg Land Starter Kit.
- new members of Neualtenburg will be given a land starter kit (similar to the ones in SL)
- the kit would include premade homes made for the valley.
- People will be able to chose between premade neualtenburg buildings and building their own home.
A selection of prefabricated homes is a great idea. It would allow folks to jump in right away with a nice new structures that are in theme.

Would anyone be interested in making a low-prim structure for the valley that's in theme? There could be a free version and then a couple of other versions that cost. It might be a good way to make a little income on the side. :)

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
10-01-2005 04:28
Please assume my lack of comments as to being the complete approval of all ideas expressed above :)
_____________________

Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
10-01-2005 05:53
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
A selection of prefabricated homes is a great idea. It would allow folks to jump in right away with a nice new structures that are in theme.

Would anyone be interested in making a low-prim structure for the valley that's in theme? There could be a free version and then a couple of other versions that cost. It might be a good way to make a little income on the side. :)

~Ulrika~


If nobody else jumps in, I'd be more than happy to.
_____________________
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-01-2005 11:09
From: Sudane Erato
The Expo platform currently sits primarily on Eugene's land. Although the deed transfer has not yet happened, he's been paying for it since the beginning. Since the transfer has not happened, the modifications were possible.

Those two steps, transfering Eugene's land to him, and selling off the remaining prim lots, will remove the City's ability to terraform, or in any way modify, those parcels.
Technically, the city is also bound by the city-wide covenant that protects all lots. It would take an approval by the RA to temporarily or permanently (city land only) change the covenant for a given plot. Let's say that the modification for the covenant was part of the RA approval for the Expo -- it wasn't addressed but implied in this case. In the future we should address it though.

This means that so far the Tinies City was the only completely unlawful city build. :D

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
10-01-2005 13:40
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
This means that so far the Tinies City was the only completely unlawful city build. :D


You rebel you!! ;) :D
_____________________
*hugs everyone*
Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
10-01-2005 13:58
From: Ulrika Zugzwang

This means that so far the Tinies City was the only completely unlawful city build. :D

~Ulrika~


I suggest pleading temporary insanity.

I mean, you see the tinies, you go all "awwww!", you just don't think right! :)
_____________________
Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-01-2005 14:21
From: Aliasi Stonebender
I suggest pleading temporary insanity.
In a way it was. :)

Once I realized that I had slowed the Marktplatz to a crawl I felt horribly guilty and realized that's exactly why we have a convenant -- to prevent exactly that kind of thing.

On the bright side we made Pathfinder's Pics twice during that period and we did receive money for being a top developer (or whatever that list is called). I never did find out how much we made. Does anyone know?

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
1 2