Problem for OS and Private Estates is also to blamed on some Land Owners

I have the permission of this person to post this log.. I am doing this to show a very real concern and problem and wonder how will LL fix it.

-- Instant message logging enabled --
[5:53] Harriet Gausman: (Saved Mon Nov 03 14:50:31 200 Hi Vryl. I wonder if you could help with some questions I have. I bought my writers' sim back in May, I believe and at the time had no idea what open space was or that i might be in violation. It wasn't until I found out that my tier would go up that i learned about it. I run a sim for writers in the ----------. The community is wonderful and the sims are one of the most beautiful around. I am heartbroken. Already people have left and abandoned their sims making it next to impossible for the estate owners to continue. How do I go about converting the sim. Or does the estate owner do this? How much would it cost me? I am desperate. We have 600 members in my writing group - they don;t all visit at once...lol - and they rely on me. Please help, I just don't know what to do. Harriet.
[6:04] Vryl Valkyrie: Hi
[6:05] Harriet Gausman: hi there
[6:05] Vryl Valkyrie: So you rent an OS sim?
[6:05] Vryl Valkyrie: or you own one?
[6:05] Harriet Gausman: yes, but at the time i thought it was mine and i had bought it
[6:06] Vryl Valkyrie: oic
[6:06] Vryl Valkyrie: how much did you pay?
[6:06] Harriet Gausman: it is in my name
[6:06] Harriet Gausman: 48k a month
[6:06] Harriet Gausman: i have a sim and a half of os
[6:06] Vryl Valkyrie: Ok but you pay monthly?
[6:07] Harriet Gausman: yes
[6:07] Harriet Gausman: i pay the estate owner
[6:07] Vryl Valkyrie: did you also give a purchase payment too?
[6:07] Harriet Gausman: not sure what you mean?
[6:07] Harriet Gausman: ohyes
[6:07] Harriet Gausman: yes i bought them
[6:07] Vryl Valkyrie: in addition to the 48K monthly
[6:07] Harriet Gausman: around 150k i think for them
[6:07] Vryl Valkyrie: was there also a one time purchase price?
[6:07] Harriet Gausman: i bought them at different times as the writers group grew
[6:08] Harriet Gausman: well i clicked on the land and paid for it
[6:08] Vryl Valkyrie: so 150 total?
[6:08] Harriet Gausman: around that i think
[6:08] Harriet Gausman: as i say i bought them at different times as they became available
[6:09] Harriet Gausman: the estate owners are lovely and i would hate to get them in any trouble
[6:09] Harriet Gausman: ---------------------------- - those are the estate owners
[6:10] Harriet Gausman: but i had no idea i couldn't put small celtic cottages on and rent them out
[6:10] Harriet Gausman: as far as i was aware i was abiding by the covenant of the estate
[6:10] Harriet Gausman: i even consulted the owners before i did anything
[6:11] Harriet Gausman: all the money goes to paying the tier, in fact it doesn't cover it fully
[6:12] Harriet Gausman: i make no profit from the venture but do it because i enjoy it
[6:12] Harriet Gausman: yeeesh
[6:14] Harriet Gausman: oh and most of the cottages are rented to the writers from the group, they like to have a quiet place to go to to write and they know they are supporting the guild.
[6:14] Harriet Gausman: sorry for all the babble, i am just getting a little desperate
[6:15] Vryl Valkyrie: It's ok..
[6:15] Vryl Valkyrie: can you just not afford to pay the extra 50 USD? Give the other half of OS
[6:15] Vryl Valkyrie: only keep one
[6:16] Harriet Gausman: yes, i think i can do that but only if i can rent the cottages out, you see they help pay the tier
[6:17] Vryl Valkyrie: you can also put a tip or donation jar out
[6:17] Vryl Valkyrie: and ask for a refund back on the half OS
[6:17] Harriet Gausman: but i think the estate owner is going to leave it anyway, that is why i am thinking about converting
[6:17] Vryl Valkyrie: you purchased it
[6:17] Vryl Valkyrie: but LL only sees her/him as owner
[6:18] Vryl Valkyrie: they have all the benefits
[6:18] Vryl Valkyrie: not you
[6:18] Harriet Gausman: yes, although my name is on there
[6:18] Vryl Valkyrie: yes but that means nothing
[6:18] Vryl Valkyrie: you are not the payor to LL
[6:18] Harriet Gausman: i know that now
[6:18] Vryl Valkyrie:
[6:18] Vryl Valkyrie: I'm so sorry
[6:18] Harriet Gausman: so i can't convert?
[6:19] Harriet Gausman: if i persuade the owners too, would i have to buy it again?
[6:19] Vryl Valkyrie: LL said they are going to take measure this does not happen again so that when people "buy" and I use this term loosely, that they know what they are buying
[6:19] Vryl Valkyrie: unless it is purchased from LL, then it is not really buying but renting
[6:19] Harriet Gausman: i see
[6:19] Vryl Valkyrie: the only way at this moment to buy an OS sim is to already own a full prim estate island
[6:20] Harriet Gausman: what a mess
[6:20] Vryl Valkyrie: in a way
[6:20] Vryl Valkyrie: the land owners are just as guilty of ripping off innoncent consumers
[6:20] Harriet Gausman: yes i do see that
[6:20] Harriet Gausman: but i have a good relationship with the and it is difficult
[6:22] Vryl Valkyrie: you paid for all
[6:22] Vryl Valkyrie: you even paid above what it cost her
[6:22] Vryl Valkyrie: you paid 150K L for both parels
[6:22] Vryl Valkyrie: parcels*
[6:22] Harriet Gausman: yes
[6:23] Vryl Valkyrie: did you pay 150K L for both or for one?
[6:24] Harriet Gausman: as i say i paid for them all at different times, so it is difificult to remember - i bought a third of one first, then another two thirds then the half sim, so maybe 100k, when i think about it
[6:24] Harriet Gausman: but all at different times as we expanded
[6:24] Harriet Gausman: and i bought one from another renter
[6:25] Vryl Valkyrie: in reality, it cost exactly 250 USD for OS sim.. that means 125 for a half of a sim.. total 375 USD .. 106K L .. you were overcharged by 44K L .. total of 155 USD
[6:25] Harriet Gausman: phew
[6:25] Vryl Valkyrie: That's not LL 's fault
[6:25] Harriet Gausman: no
[6:25] Vryl Valkyrie: in essence, the actual land owner paid 0
[6:26] Vryl Valkyrie: yet you have no rights
[6:26] Vryl Valkyrie: and the land owner makes a profit from you at no investment on her part
[6:26] Harriet Gausman: i just wish i knew all of this way back then
[6:27] Harriet Gausman: but it is done now, i just want to find a way to move forward and continue with my writing community
[6:27] Vryl Valkyrie: well
[6:28] Vryl Valkyrie: I suggest that you ask the land owner to refun you the monies spent to buy hte half os
[6:28] Vryl Valkyrie: or
[6:28] Vryl Valkyrie: give you one month rent free
[6:28] Vryl Valkyrie: that is only fair
[6:28] Vryl Valkyrie: then from that point on, perhaps accept donations
[6:28] Vryl Valkyrie: and also your rentals


-- Instant message logging enabled --
[6:39] Vryl Valkyrie: Hi, I'm sorry.. I crashed
[6:39] Harriet Gausman: np
[6:44] Vryl Valkyrie: I think I understand
[6:44] Vryl Valkyrie: you really do not want to leave
[6:44] Vryl Valkyrie: you want to stay where you are
[6:44] Harriet Gausman: no
[6:44] Harriet Gausman: yes i want to stay
[6:45] Vryl Valkyrie: especially since you made such a huge investment
[6:45] Harriet Gausman: and put a lot of work into it - it's incredibly beautiful
[6:48] Vryl Valkyrie: do you want then to give up the half os?
[6:48] Vryl Valkyrie: to be able to afford the whole
[6:48] Harriet Gausman: there's a quarter sim right next to us, i was thinking of buying that and selling the half
[6:49] Harriet Gausman: that way i am reducing the size a little
[6:49] Vryl Valkyrie: buying or renting?
[6:49] Vryl Valkyrie: you know you are not really buying
[6:49] Harriet Gausman: renting, i mean
[6:49] Harriet Gausman: sorry
[6:56] Vryl Valkyrie: I'l looking at that 1/4 sim
[6:56] Vryl Valkyrie: and they want you to buy it too
[6:56] Vryl Valkyrie: it's 32K L to purchase plus monthly tier
[6:56] Harriet Gausman: i haven;t mentioned it to them yet, it was just a thougth
[6:57] Vryl Valkyrie: it's on ly an OS sim
[6:58] Vryl Valkyrie: it's one half of an os
[7:08] Vryl Valkyrie: harriet
[7:08] Vryl Valkyrie: to convert the sim, you need 4 OS
[7:08] Harriet Gausman: hi there
[7:08] Harriet Gausman: ok
[7:09] Harriet Gausman: so best to keep all four then?
[7:09] Vryl Valkyrie: do you have 4 ?
[7:09] Vryl Valkyrie: I thought you only had 1 and one half
[7:09] Harriet Gausman: oh, i see, i would need more
[7:09] Harriet Gausman: ok well that is out then
[7:10] Vryl Valkyrie: I have contacted your land owner
[7:10] Vryl Valkyrie: asking her to give you one month free
[7:10] Harriet Gausman: thank you, i really appreciate your help
[7:10] Vryl Valkyrie: in lieu of her refunding you for the purchase price of the half
[7:11] Vryl Valkyrie: may Ihave your permission to post this because I think this is a serious problem
[7:11] Harriet Gausman: sure
[7:14] Vryl Valkyrie: thank you

[7:15] Vryl Valkyrie: can you please post here saying you gave me permission to post this
[7:15] Vryl Valkyrie: /354/a5/290881/1.html#post2205108
[7:15] Harriet Gausman: I give you permission to post this on the forum thread.
[7:16] Vryl Valkyrie: can you go to that thread and just say you did give me permission to post it please?
[7:23] Vryl Valkyrie: another solution is to ask her to rtransfer the island to someone who is an estate owner and she must pay the transfer cost
[7:23] Vryl Valkyrie: an estate owner who would not charge you a profit
[7:23] Vryl Valkyrie: one who would only charge cost
[7:24] Harriet Gausman: sorry, i am a little confused here, aren't the landowners the estate owners?
[7:29] Vryl Valkyrie: yes they are
[7:29] Vryl Valkyrie: she needs to refun you money if you do not keep your os
[7:30] Vryl Valkyrie: or give you free tier
[7:30] Vryl Valkyrie: or maybe transfer it

Just wanted to add that I did give permission for this to be posted.

Harriet

As you see, this is a nightmare for renters and is completely unfair to them. This is not an uncommon problem. I would like to add that the real victims here are renters and this is not the fault of LL.. but of many land owners, the same land owners who complain about this price hike. I wonder what these people will do for residents like Harriet who actually made the full investment plus more.

I must say, that I honestly don't think that I can stand to read any more about this totally insane situation. I will make a few comments, then simply hope the LL will change this proposed policy and end the lunacy.

The proposed policy is Uncalled for, Unnecessary and patently Unfair for THOUSANDS of residents. In my opinion, there are two basic issues to consider Before this ridiculous policy is enacted.

First, consider the Thousands of real live Human Beings affected. We residents that LL is so proud to tout as being so creative and responsible for ALL the content within SL. Many of us struggle to meet our tiers each month, and who were so grateful to have an OS sim that was within our reach financially. Also in this group of humans are the estate owners, who wanted to have a long term business in SL, slighted along with the rest of us.

Second and possibly more important for Any of us that has considered a long term investment in SL, is the factor of Trust in LL. That trust has been Totally Destroyed with this proposal. Why would anyone want to consider a long term committment to SL, when apparently LL will change policy on a whim, Anytime they please.... simply because they Can!

As has been shown throughout all the topics in the Forums, there ARE numerous ways to handle the "problem." and one can only hope that LL has seen the light, along with the Outrage of us, the residents of Second Life.

~End of rant~

I do also want to add here that many land and estate owners have worked damned hard to recreate wonderful communities for us and I don't want to just throw the blame at them either. My particular estate is extremely well managed and the owners are an integral part of the community. It really is a mess and everyone is affected here. I wanted my IM posted because I was tired of seeing people throw the ABUSER word around, when actually many are like me, they had no idea they were doing anything wrong, they adhered to the terms of their covenant and consulted the estate owners about any changes they wanted to make. I didn't even know what an OPEN SPACE sim was until this week. Linden really should have made it clear to us as consumers in their world and taken steps to protect people.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but - it's the domino effect. Which LL have always been extremely, extremely bad at stopping.

Once one renter started "abusing" OS sims, LL needed to act against them right there. They didn't - so others _had_ to do it, or they couldn't compete. Who'd pay for rental of a regular area when an OS sim could give them just as many prims but more space, for the same price? Pandora's Box was open, and now LL are trying to jam the contents back in.

So let me get this straight, the person was happy with the deal, happy with the estate owners until you stepped in and made assumptions about how much the person paid, as they're not sure how much they paid.

This is supposedly an example of a bad landlord? You're scraping the barrel here and here's some news for you, Linden Lab don't sell us their products at cost.

Did you explain to Harriet that to buy one Openspace from linden lab she would have to buy an island first and pay a minimum of $195 a month if she was lucky enough to find a grandfathered one going second hand, plus the fact that they generally cost more than new sims, or if she goes direct to Linden Lab it would be USD$1000 for the island and USD$250 for the openspace plus tier of USD$295 just for the island before the Openspace even comes into the equation? I don't see any mention of that.

I"ve looked at the land store of the estate managers for the estate where Harriet's writer's group is housed. When listing available land "for sale" they do say it comes with 3750 prims. But they DON"T tell you that it is an Openspace sim that can only support limited development. And Harriet did not know she wasn't "buying" a real sim that would have come with 15000 prims instead. And the estate owners turned a blind eye to all of Harriet's development of her 1.5 sims (and probably other people's as well, as the estate has a fair number of sims. I don't know if they are all OS or not).

Even if Harriet gets rid of the 1/2 OS sim, keeping the remaining Openspace sim as it currently stands is in direction violation of the OS rules, according to Linden Lab's recent stated description. The sim contains a number of rental cottages, a market area, and hosts regular readings and discussions. The only way it can be landscaped is to use a number of scripted temp rezzers, which if I am not mistaken, cause quite a bit of server load (at least I seem to recall reading that somewhere once).

Her group really belongs on its own private estate sim, so that she is the owner, has full estate privileges (which she currently does not have), gets 15000 prims, and can develop to her heart's content without worrying about violating LL's rules.

The trick is how to handle that with the estate owners. Given the fact that she was mislead and overcharged for the Openspace sims, I would suggest that if she contributes her 1.5 OS sims, and the owners contribute an additional 2.5 OS sims (I'm sure there must be some vacant or unoccupied landscaped OS sims in the estate that they can contribute, at NO ADDITIONAL charge to Harriet), that would allow the estate owners to return four OS sims to Linden in exchange for one regular estate sim (I think you can do this.) I think there is a $100 USD onetime conversion fee for this. I would suggest that the estate owners pay that conversion charge, given that they mislead her about what she was "buying." And here I am not an expert, but, can't the estate owner, after making the conversion to a single regular estate sim, transfer ownership/title of that sim officially to Harriet, so that in Linden Lab's records, she is the official private estate sim owner, instead of the former estate manager?

If all of this can be accomplished, Harriet gets an improvement in terms of her sim's capabilities and gets the security of owning it outright according to Linden Lab. And this should be accomplished without any further cost to Harriet, as she thought she was buying a full sim, and the estate owners did not disabuse her of that notion. Private sims can be placed adjacent to other private sims, with the permission of both owners. The new writer's group sim could perhaps be placed adjacent to Cookie (which houses several writer's groups) or sLiterary. Those are just the first two that come to mind. They have both been around for a while and are well-managed, so I don't think there is a lot of risk of the landscape suddenly changing for the worse.

The only downside is that she will have to pay more for monthly tier. But she is going to have to pay significantly more for monthly tier on the OS sims as of January 1st, as things currently stand. So one way or another her tier will go up. And if she is allowed to stay on the Openspace sims, in addition to the increased fees (and at this point who knows what her estate owner will charge her for them) Linden will crack down on her sims based on intended usage guidelines, and she will be forced to remove most of her community anyway. They are supposed to just be used for open water, or meadow/forest land. And if she does not insist on this conversion and transfer, she may find that the estate owners just close down the entire estate because they cannot support the cost. There are already sims and parcels for sale in the estate, and there will be more.

Please, if I have any of my facts/numbers/permissions wrong, correct me. I am no expert. And if someone can think of a better plan please chime in. And if my plan sucks, please be gentle when you point out the flaws!

I agree Vryl,i have posted my situation a few times in the forums so no sense saying it all again,
Is it poss.that this whole ball got rolling with estate owners seeing a way to make money with these OS,buying them by the thousands and selling them for what they paid for them and increasing the tier for profit
I paid $500 for my OS,i originally had the 1800+ prims and was delight when they were increased to 3750
I'm not defending LL here but i"m sure they have seen this huge land rush with OS and the profits being made by estate owners,in my case ($45 at the moment and it will increase to $51 a month profit for the estate owner)
I love my OS,yes i have made use of the prims allowed me,only two avatars use the island,
It is my wish that LL will make OS or whatever islands they may come up with through all this available to the individual buyers and not exclusively to estate owners.
I would like to pay the tier LL charges and not one penny more.
I have actually been paying $120 all along,$5 less than the increase everyone is up in arms about
There is obviously a huge demand for islands,that has been demonstrated.
Maybe it's time for LL to come up with 3 or 4 types of islands,starting with a low prim islands and the others gradually rising in prim allowance and tier price accordingly
AND TO SELL THEM TO INDIVIDUALS AND NOT JUST TO ESTATE OWNERS SO WE WHO RENT /OWN NOW, DON'T HAVE TO PAY INFLATED TIER FEE MARKUPS

You realise that's likely to increase support costs, billing costs and ultimately how will that be paid for? Ah yes tier increase.

I'm fine with Linden Lab selling any product they like, but let's get realistic about increased costs if we're going to go down that route.

So you are saying that islands(OS) being sold to estate owners keeps the cost down,whats the difference if an island (OS)is sold to an estate owner or an individual
I assume you are an estate owner,and i assume you think my having to pay $45 now and $51 by jan is reasonable
You talk about increased costs,they would still be cheaper than what i'm paying.in jan. i will be paying approx $190 ($176 +20% exchange to US funds)
So as far as i'm concerned any increased costs would still be cheaper than renting from an estate owner

Shop around, there are better deals than that and yes I am saying estate owners keep costs down. All that extra billing would fall upon Linden Lab otherwise, they have enough issues with billing as it is. They'd have to hire extra people and buy extra equipment and I'm not just saying this because I own land, it's pure common sense. There would also be extra support costs because the more people who buy from Linden Lab the more support they'd have to offer.

We're seeing here an example of the sort of increases we get when Linden Lab have to deal with something, be careful what you wish for.

Sell OS sims to individual to stop the REAL abuse incurred in costs by innocent renters.

I am not saying that all estate owners are bad. Many are fantastic. However, this is an important issue which needs to be addressed. Too many SL users have fallen victim to this private estate resell confusion where they are actually paying for virtual land that they have no rights to.

Perhaps, estate property should not be resold only rented unless it involves a full transfer.

They do, put your money where your mouth is Agent Provocateur.

Oh please, please tell me where i can buy an OS without going through an estate owner.you just said they sell OS to individuals who are not estate owners,now you put your facts where your mouth is and tell me how
Sorry to rile you estate owners up but in all reality you created the situation we are in now

No I didn't say they sell OS to individuals who are not estate owners, I said they sell OS to individuals. An estate owner is an individual. If you want one, go buy a full sim like estate owners have to.

From Linden Lab that's going to cost you USD$1250, plus tier of $370 a month rising to USD$420 come January, but they're available if you want them.

You can save money by buying second hand islands, plenty for sale in the land sales forum.

Hey - can't we keep it nice? It is not necessary to call people names. It takes the focus of discussion off the issues, and it becomes a personal attack instead. It isn't necessary, and all it does is make the name-caller look bad. And when that happens, I am far less likely to listen to anything else that person has to say. Which leads to a total breakdown in communication.

We are all confused by this, and trying to talk through the various options and their impact together. Let's help each other, ok?

The core of this arguement here is how did some estates go about marketing and selling the OS sims.

That the majority of estates sell on an honest upfront basis.......telling people exactly what they are buying.......their are many estates that blatantly mislead residents by not mentioning what an OS is........I posted in another thread an example of this i.e quote from an estate website........on this site the estate sells Full Islands with 3750 prims on class 5 servers..........commercial and residential use is allowed...........no restrictions........the island in your name.....bla bla !!!!!! there is nowhere on the site a mention that these sims are OS and limited use !!!!!

The average resident has no idea what the difference is between real full sim and OS........for them its an island

But like I metioned the majority of estates are honest and upfront.........but due to the mass of OS sims that were sold the small minority of estates that did fool their renters means there will be a large segment of residents who are going to very surprised.

To back this up just google for estates...........you'll find a number like the one I metioned, a minority maybe but it has happened

LOOOOL

To update my previous post.....I just checked the site I quoted.....and guess what they are still advertising the way I quoted.............hmm in light of whats happening I think that is really smacks of BAD ETHICS and non serious business

Yes, and I checked the in world store for the estate where Harriet /bought/rents estate land (the woman Vryl spoke to in the original post), and they have not changed any of their signs or land offer descriptions, either.

They must know what is going on right now. That is just unethical, not to post something clarifying the type of land that is being offered; to leave everything in their sales office the same. Hoping for some poor soul to come along and buy? Not cool.

That "something"created by estate ownersl

Oh please, estate owners placed the scripts and prims did they? That "something" was created by Linden Lab and their reckless selling despite being told numerous times how these sims were being used they continued to sell for their own ends and now they are trying to rectify the situation months too late.

We could go on and on like this but i've said my piece and how i feel,
The end

I become very frustrated by posts like this one placing all of the blame on the Estate Owners...there were two people in this transaction and the purchaser/renter should have done some research before entering into the agreement. They could have easily discovered that a Full Island Estate is allotted 15000 prims, therefore if there were only 3750 allotted to this 65,536 parcel, then clearly this was not a Full Island Estate. This information is easily accessible via the Knowledge Base and the Wiki, and if you are purchasing land you should know how to check the prim count and allotment for that land. The real lesson to be learned here is to be a more informed consumer in the future.


.....

In realty no-one 'buys' land ..even from Linden Labs - It's all rental. I see estate owners getting the blame here and wonder if Linden Labs have pointed out the error of Anshe Chung's empire out to her? I cannot see any difference.