On-Grid Plan of Action

I agree fully. The only acceptable solution to me is full grandfathering of all current openspaces. If they want to increase prices on new openspaces, it is fine, because it doesn't destroy the ability for current openspaces (and the creativity spent on them) to exist.

I feel that it is unrealistical to expect LL to grant an unlimited grandfather clause on all OP sims. The purpose of this thread is to seek out a realistic alternative solution that is fair to all, a compromise.

Not true. Grandfather OP sims will mean the overloading will continue until LL are able to find other solutions. This will only affect user experience, not LL. And I don't think that will be an issue to LL since they never bother to address mainland lag.

The only problem to them is that they might have to stop selling OP sim until this problem is addressed.

I would rather prefer them to grandfather all OP sims and spend more time to address the overloading issue. Technically, this requires more time and can't be resolved within 2 months.

Increase tier price might be the faster solution but it hurts all their customer and the economy.

I guess I just disagree, sorry. I honestly feel that realistically speaking an OP at that prices falls into line with all of the other prices. What people are paying for is space. If they don't want it, then don't pay.. simple as that.

I made some suggestions of a realistic compromise as did others. However, it seems that some extremists here want it all or nothing.. which I think is entirely unfair.

That is what LL already does. Which of course leads to "real" 501c3 non profit groups renting out land, while "fake" non-profits like NCI (who don't have a 501c3) pay full price.

In case some of you missed the chat with Jack Linden.. here it is.. I think it is interesting and looks hopeful but I do still see some smokescreens, such as the issue with their own OP sims. I'm sorry Jack, I don't buy your excuse of why your OP sims were all of a suddent converted to full prim islands. I don't believe that they were always full prim islands and that the transfer locked in the old details. Yes, let's work together on realistic solutions but please do not insult our intelligence. Just thought I would mention, that I have plenty of high resolution screenshots Jack. The main thing that has pissed so many off here, besides the price hike is the smokescreens. We are not children and do not wish to be treated as such.

Be honest and then we can talk!

Spêcial thanks to Melody Regent



Jack Linden shouts: so the Q.. What about those of us with 3 or less sims who haven't the plans nor ability to go forward with a fourth and convert to a full sim? Are we just out of luck and going to be forced to abandon or will we be given the option to keep them with the higher tier?

[11:41] Jack Linden shouts: We may look at ways to help there, if people want to convert to a full region. That's certainly on the table as an option

[11:41] Patch Linden: ====> As obviously there is a financial reason for the decision are you going to provide support for residents with free conversions from now until the deadline so we can change the sims back. Also will you be exploring the 2 Open Space Sim idea for higher prims - as commercially these could fill the gap.

[11:43] Jack Linden shouts: I think that allowing a period of free conversions is fair, so i would think we could help with that.
[11:43] Guy Linden shouts: Please IM your questions to Patch Linden so they can be addressed. Please dont just chat out, keep open chat to a minimum so everyone can see the Q&A

[11:43] Jack Linden shouts: And yes, we will look at ways to add further value and performance to Openspaces, in the usage model they are mostly being used for now. The CPU ratio is one option.

[11:44] Jack Linden shouts: Questions to Patch Linden via IM please.

[11:44] Patch Linden shouts: =====> hi please could you explain why the OS sims where prim doubled, and allowed to be non connected to estate sims?

[11:45] Jack Linden shouts: So i'm asked why the prim counts were raised and other improvements made. Let me answer that one..

[11:46] Jack Linden shouts: First of all, Prims are not the only load and probably not the biggest part of load - agents, scripts and even textures add up to load.

[11:47] Jack Linden shouts: With load based issues, it's hard to predict usage levels, how that will affect the databases, bandwidth and so on, and those issues are emerging ones as the count of Openspaces shot up

[11:47] Dave Sparrow shouts: jack i cant get pathfinders profile so ill ask..... why arent linden labs accepting this has all been a scam like we know it has, apologising to us all for it, and moving on? as we would be willing to move forward if Linden Lab admits to it and rectifies it

[11:49] Patch Linden shouts: =====> How does that (# of openspaces) compare with the number of full regions on the grid, and what metrivs were used to determine that open space sims are using more resources than their cost justifies?

[11:51] Jack Linden shouts: To be clear, we don't think that the change of use is a bad thing, we added extra utility to Openspaces ahead of seeing the popularity or net effects, and yes that is difficult because there are some that use them for empty space and many more that do not. So this isn't about stopping that change of use, it's about recognising the extra costs we incur, and the extra value residents are getting too.

[11:52] Patch Linden shouts: ====> could you just cap the agent's in a sim to 10 and keep the price the same?

[11:53] Jack Linden shouts: The non-connected issue.. I think my last shout covered that.. we had thought the extra functionality would be a positive, so I understand why you ask that.

[11:54] Jack Linden shouts: To the Question.. how does that (# of openspaces) compare with the number of full regions on the grid, and what metrivs were used to determine that open space sims are using more resources than their cost justifies?

[11:55] Jack Linden shouts: there are 32000 regions in all

11:56] Jack Linden shouts: 5,000 of those are Linden Mainland


[11:56] Aben Criss shouts: =====> Can you provide a higher grade of Openspace sim using 2 CPU at 125$ a month an alternative between the two

[11:56] Tensho Hayashi shouts: he dont say how many are open spaces... i wonder why

[11:57] Patch Linden shouts: =====> Hi...would it not be possible to grandfather the existing openspace...but on any transfers of those islands....they move to the new costings? That would ensure natural reduction of those problem sims because let's face it...your problem is misuse. If you put the price up.... does that misuse beacome OK?


[11:57] Jack Linden shouts: there are lots of metricsaround usage levels, from simple numbers such as you see in the inworld stats window, to User hours and concurrency for Openspaces. No single figure gives the whole view

[11:58] Jack Linden shouts: But I think if you explore the Openspaces, you'll see that set against the intended original purpose, empty areas, very few are used that way these days

[11:59] Patch Linden shouts: =====> Was the use of Open Space sims clearly defined originally?

[11:59] Jack Linden shouts: So the question abouit grandfathering..

[12:00] Melody Regent: I want to see the answer to this one - [11:57] Patch Linden shouts: =====> Hi...would it not be possible to grandfather the existing openspace...but on any transfers of those islands....they move to the new costings? That would ensure natural reduction of those problem sims because let's face it...your problem is misuse. If you put the price up.... does that misuse beacome OK?

[12:00] Jack Linden shouts: As is probably clear from the announcement, we need to recognise that extra load, the extra value Openspaces have - if we grandfather indefinitely, the load from those grandfathered regions is still there, and we're not recognising that extra cost.

[12:01] Melody Regent: I like the price goes up on transfer, that dwindles the numbers

[12:01] Jack Linden shouts: So simply grandfathering, doesn't really act as a solution. Whether there are ways to phase grandfathering, which is something several people have suggested, is something we are discussing

[12:02] Jack Linden shouts: 'how does that (# of openspaces) compare with the number of full regions on the grid, and what metrivs were used to determine that open space sims are using more resources than their cost justifies?' Yes, it was. I linked in yesterdays post to the KB article which was fairly explicit I think, about intended use for them

[12:04] Jack Linden shouts: Folks.. just a point of order.. if you keep direct IMing me, dropping notecards etc ,it is really tough for me to answer. I'd need several more pairs of hands than I currently have installed.

[12:04] Melody Regent: what about this one? did I miss the answer? [11:52] Patch Linden shouts: ====> could you just cap the agent's in a sim to 10 and keep the price the same?

[12:04] Jack Linden shouts: So lets keep to the process, IM questions to Patch. He has, probably, 7 hands at least.

[12:05] Patch Linden: ======> I wanted to know why Mos Ansley was an OS that had only 637 prims left on it and a boatload of scripts and linden owned and now suddenly its a full sim?

[12:06] Jack Linden shouts: Re. agent caps.. first of all, we'd have to add that via development, but the main point is that agents alone are also not the only aspect of load. It might help, but then 1 agent with many scripted attachments can be as high load as 10 with less

[12:08] Jack Linden shouts: onto the Linden Mos Ainsley region. This was and has always been on a full CPU, it was however originally built by the DPW moles on some Voids which had the lower prim setting. So when we moved them, that 3750 limit was still there, but they were full regions, not openspaces.

[12:08] Patch Linden shouts: =====> How does increasing the price affect in anyways the perfomance of the OS? Will you guys be improving the OS?

[12:09] Jack Linden shouts: so that caused some raised eyebrows, which I can understand. .but it was just a config booboo. they were not openspaces.

[12:10] Jack Linden shouts: Yes, definitely. Now that we are clear about the demand from you guys for a higher performing product, we will be working to make them better. We're really very pleased that they have been so popular, but the pricing and positioning just wasn't right.

[12:10] Patch Linden shouts: =====> Suppose that Linden Labs were to decide to allow truly "low-use" water sims to stay at the current rate, hypothetically....would there be any way to clamp their resource use, such as max frame time or max packets, to ensure compliance?

[12:11] Melody Regent: FOLLOWUP - How will you make the perform better?

[12:12] Jack Linden shouts: That's a great question. We do not currently have a way to do that, to support the genuine 'open space' usage with hard limits built into the simulator, but we've certainly been seeing in the feedback that some people still want that use. The sailing community for example, who are the classic example of Openspace use.

[12:13] Jack Linden shouts: So we're looking at how we recognise that different usage level now, including how technically we might achieve that.

[12:13] Patch Linden shouts: ======> Jack you say the VALUE of them has gone up, can you tell me of the 66% price increase what % is used to cover ADDITIONAL costs and what% is for the perceeved value?

[12:16] Patch Linden shouts: ====> What is your deadline for finalising what you will and wont do to smooth the conversion? IE. Free conversions, final say in usage, loads, etc....?

[12:16] Patch Linden shouts: Jack Linden: That's a deep question for this kind of forum, and I don't think we percieve it quite that way. Rather we are looking at how normal regions with their value vs usage compares to Openspaces, where the costs have been much lower for residents but clearly higher for us

[12:18] Jack Linden shouts: We don't want this to be a long process, but we do want it to be as measured and correct a decision as it can be. So I would hope to be coming back to the community next week with our thinking. In terms of the price changes, they will not hit owners directly for 60-90 days depending on their bill dates but we know this has to be wrapped up so we wil lwork as fast as we can to respond

[12:19] Jack Linden shouts: are we doing okay out there? people seeing the Qs and As?

[12:20] Patch Linden shouts: =====> What about the people with just like 2 or 3 OS ... could you not offer us to convert to a FS without the cost of converting ? And we would pay the extra 45 bucks a munth for a FS

[12:21] Jack Linden shouts: ***** perhaps if i add some asterisks, i'll be eaiser to see.

[12:22] Jack Linden shouts: ***** Yes, we're looking at making converting (in general) back to normal regions easier, and that includes waiving the conversion fee.

[12:22] Patch Linden shouts: ====> Jack, why not Gradfather the OS that are online and NOT sell anyomore via the Land store and Then fix the Backend?

[12:25] Jack Linden shouts: ***** That's a good question: if we grandfather, that doesn't resolve the extra load. And if we stop selling them altogether that doesn't help those that still want to buy them, and of course we have to balance any decisions we make with our position as a business

[12:26] Jack Linden shouts: Folks, we have 30 minutes left - so please IM your Questions to Patch Linden

[12:27] Patch Linden shouts: =====> Is LL going to provide us with a method of knowing that our OSS is operating within guidelines or not?

[12:27] Jack Linden shouts: I'll also do some additional sessions over the next few days as I want to give as many of you time to talk to us as possible.

[12:29] Jack Linden shouts: Yes, we are drawing up some guidance on what will work well, what will cause performance problems and where the line is. It's going to be something of a 'guide' rather than a rule because load is a complex thing, but we're working on that now. In addition, for those that are really pushing them do hard that it's affecting other regions, we will be reaching out to discuss and educate.

[12:29] Patch Linden shouts: =======> Jack, LL is claiming a loss due to performance. But todays hardware is superior in performance per core with more internal cache. LL is using 1 CPU with 2 - 4 cores for multiple sims vs. the old 1 server per 1 sim model... Please explain the LL loss.

[12:31] Jack Linden shouts: Firstly, although classes of hardware do improve at each level, all the class 5s are effectively the same and the server spec that simulators run on is just one part of the equation anyway.. the back end databases, bandwidth etcetera also play a part

[12:31] Patch Linden shouts: ====> What's the average land price (ML) and does the decline of ML pricing have anything do to with your policy change regarding Openspace sims?

[12:32] Jack Linden shouts: The Mainland average price per meter (mean average) has been floating between L$5.5 per meter and L$6.5 per meter for some time now. It's been quite consistent at that level with only small deviations for single days. And no, it had no part in this decision at all.

[12:33] Patch Linden: =====> Can we have an Openspace product with 7500 prims, 10-20 agents for say $150?

[12:34] Jack Linden shouts: A bold question! I think we're looking at how we deal with the different levels of use, and performance expectations. I can't answer definitively other than th say that we recognise that different people require different kinds of openspace.


[12:34] Patch Linden shouts: =====> How will performance improve if everybody actually pays the price increase? You are still going to have the same number of openspaces on the same server type…And the problem is the same again just like it is if you had decided to grandfather them?

[12:36] Coke Supply shouts: if we are paying $125 p/m now, CAN WE KEEP OUR CLUBS??
[12:37] Aben Criss shouts: =====> Can you provide a higher grade of Openspace sim using 2 CPU at 125$ a month an alternative between the two

[12:37] Jack Linden shouts: ***** I'd love to answer that with definite points, but as you know this is being discussed. Do we want to improve and invest in this product, absolutely. Are there options to do that which would fit with the newer pricing, definitely. Changing the level of simulators per CPU is one that has been mentioned many times in the forums and elsewhere. There are lots of options that we're looking at regarding improvements.

[12:38] Patch Linden shouts: =====> You answered the free transfer question and you consider that as an option and I for one appreciate that .. but could you consider buying OS back at cost (say if you dont have enough left over for a transf. ) the resell value just went through the floor ?

[12:39] Jack Linden shouts: ***** We haven't made any decisions on credits or buyback, although we have allowed refunds for very recent Openspace purchases. So I can't give a definite on that question other than to reiterate that we'll consider it. Obviously, it's potentially a tough thing to support

[12:41] Tizzy Teardrop shouts: There is a certain value in customer satisfaction and experience that you cannot measure with a numerical figure. Though this may benefit the Lab's immediate bottom line, ignoring the customer base will ultimately end in an exodus, as Aminom has stated.
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[12:42] Patch Linden shouts: =====> You speak about load on the servers, usage, grid impact - wouldn't it be better to address other issues that negatively impact grid performance first like camping bots from unpaid accounts, etc before slamming your paying customers? Also how about going back to 4 OS groupings, setting all 4 to the same core?

[12:44] Jack Linden shouts: ***** Other resource related issues like camping chairs and land cutting are actively being looked at, and will be dealt with though those mainland issues are separate from this Openspace one. They are all being worked on concurrently.

[12:45] Jack Linden shouts: ***** as for pinning to a server or core, that touches on grid contingency and how we keep regions up, pinning like that isn't something we can currently support in that way.

[12:48] Patch Linden shouts: =====> Will there be less OS per CPU with this Price increase? will there be better preformance out of the CPU's being able to handel more scripts textures Prims ect so there is a Value for everyones money?

[12:50] Greywolf Moonlight: you would think that the ones shouting out to Jack would realize that NONE of their questions are being answered, and i.m. Patch with their ??? instead, too dense, I guess...

[12:53] Patch Linden: ======> Since Ll is upgrading the class 4 OS to class 5, how long before LL makes it mandatory to upgrade class 4 full sim?

[12:55] Jack Linden shouts: ***** A little off topic, but we have made no announcements about the class 4 full regions. Any decisions we make will be blogged. So no news there at this time.

[12:57] Jack Linden shouts: so we're about at the end of this session. I understand the passion behind the feedback and we're taking this very seriously. I realise there weren't as many clear answers as you'd have liked but did you find this helpful? If I do more sessions like this over the next few days, would that be worthwhile?

[12:58] Jack Linden shouts: We do see this as a conversation, so lets keep talking sensibly about this until we have had a chance to digest all this feedback.

[12:59] Jack Linden shouts: okay, so I will try to add some more times to the calendar (the public office hours one).


[13:00] Jack Linden shouts: thank you all for taking the time, and thanks for keeping this (huge) gathering as civil as it was.

[13:00] Patch Linden shouts: Bye everyone! Many great questions, I can see many more to be answered, I took them all in order and passed them on as they came in!

There are quite a number of questions that Jack did not answer. (I'm referring only to the ones which Pathfinder shouted.) He responded to them, but he talked about something else -not the question.

For example, one of them asked why they upped the prim limits and allowed them to be disconnected from full sims. And his answer talks about load instead - nothing about the policy change reason.

He said a lot of maybes, we're looking at it, and we're thinking about that.

Some of these things should have already been in place or be in place now. Like if they're going to wave the conversion fee, it should be in place now for those who are converting. That's a billing thing. Not something in the server code. (Yes, billing can be complicated software, but if they can't even add a special credit within a few days or do it manually....) Or even just say they're going to do it, but it will take a couple of weeks to credit to your account.

Some things do take time, but it seems more like dragging things out so they can get one more month of tier out of people who are on the fence.

I don't see this conversation with Jack as being very hopeful.

Firelight

I suggest that everyone stop thinking of LL as some kind of partnership or government, and start thinking of LL as what they really are. A business that wants your money. If they want your money, make them work for it. And don't give them more until they give you what you want in exchange for it.

My proposal is to offer a non transfer "grandfathered" 4 OS sims purchased prior to the announcement per resident. I think this would be reasonable and fair to all.

After speaking to a few friends tonight.. they offered these suggestions as well:

1. Apologize to the residents of SL for insulting our intelligence.

2. Give us more accurate and open communication.

3. Show us stats pertaining to bandwith and costs incurred.

4. Assurance that this will not happen again.

5. Continue with the plan to improve hardware and technology and keep us more updated other than the blog.

Hey how about 8? it takes 8 to encircle a regular sim.

All I want is an appology from Jack for the lie that the lag was caused by abuse.
Then an appology for the bad feeling he has caused in SL.
I want my OS sims to be as I contracted them. that is as they were delivered to me, 3750 prims, $75 per month.

If there are problems with the way they are used ( which there are not ) then I will not expect help as this was stated when I paid for them.

That is ALL I want, exactly what I paid for when I signed the contract.

You seem to have delusions of grandeur. Ejecting 3000 people from a group doesn't make you important or make your opinions any more valid than another residents... what it des is prejudice people against you.

You may have valid points, or even constructive motives, but the fact that you took it upon yourself to destroy the action group by ejecting everyone without consultation or reason, is enough to ensure that I do not respect your opinions.
~Cali~

I have one thing to say on this as I do not wish to see this thread derailed.. it's easy to make judgements when you do not know all the facts.

I was ejected along with 3000 people *without explanation*. How can I know all the facts if you have taken unilateral action and then ejected everyone?

I think it is pretty pathetic that you a) reported my previous post [for what? Giving my opinion?] b) went into SL and left messages on my account and then muted me without giving me a chance to reply. Edited: She hadn't muted me, but her response was delayed and made no sense. She says it was hypocritical of me to comment when I don't know the full stoy. As she didn't offer any explanation to the people she ejected from the group it is hard to know how we *could* have the full story. [end of Edit]

I can see that you are not a fan of free speech then, Vryl!

I hope this thread gets well and truly derailed. I think there are much better ones. I'm only sorry this comment will bump it up once again.
~Cali~

In my understanding, there are infact only two soulutions for us residents who paid for a LL product RL money.

1) All OS sims purchased before the anouncment have to be grandfathered, otherwise I think a huge lawsuit will float the offices at LL.

2) LL revoke their plans and all remains as it was before.

Moreover, what I do not understand is why people are thinking about improvments for LL and would obviously pay more for less in the end, while they get slapped by LL with higher tiers. There is no one comment which shows us residents credebility and trust for the future.

Let LL answer firts the tier issue and what they are doing, instead of thinking for them, how we could betrate ourselfs in lowering prims, scripts etc. for a product a certain price, leagaly bought and used.

You know I love SL, but what happens here would be too much for any company on this planet. well maybe LL weakes up and see how much the game is loved, but not the practices they are doing business.

Magical, I don't think it's possible for ALL OS sims to be grandfathered due to the sheer numbers. There are just TOO many. We have to think on a realistic compromise that is fair to all.

Sure there are some abuses in non-profits, but the goverment does not eliminate all non profits altogether because of that. Just as we dont want LL to penalized all of the OSS owners for some OSS owner abuses
.

Firstly, a possible compromise is normaly discussed before ancouncing a one party change of a treaty. There was not even a mail from LL.

Secondly, company according to consumer should be aware of consumer protection laws.

Moreover, residents are paying costumers and not partners as far as LL treats us. We bought all a product to a certain price and we are notasking for another product that they want to sell us. If they want more money they can add benefits to a 125$ tier. Not raising the prices 66% and more without any benefits for the costumer.

Sorry, Vryl I do not really understand, what you are looking for, or expecting from paying costumers.

More land tier means less money for spending on content creations, which will weakening the economy. Have you ever thought about that. It is the content that build up second life and the most of it came in from residents. Sure teh techincal paltform has to be provided, but look at hardware prices the last years. They dropped. There is no performance issue at LL, there is something else. As long as LL does not communicate well and honest, I think most of us residents are not willing to think of a compromise.

P.S.: Is my opinion only, I represent here

LL is a busines, and as such is here to make a profit -- plain and simple. ( I see no problem with that ) The way I see it ,they are a service provider and we are the customers. Most companies pricing strategies are based on complex structures taking into account internal and external factors such as costs (capacity, labor resouces, etc), projected market share (demand), competitive pricing strategies and in some cases good will (to name a few). In LL's case they are somewhat if not entirely a monopoly so competive pricing does not play a roll, therefore they are only concerned with covering the cost of the resources needed to provide the product and any additional income which they can make (margin). So basically they can charge what ever the market will bear. If the market can bear their current or proposed price changes they will continue, if not they will have to reevaluate their pricing strategies. It is a shame though that because of their monopoly or perceived monopoly they can "gouge' the market. (as viable competitors begin to appear I imagine this will not continue)

While short term as a monopoly they may be able to completely ignore customer relations for the sake of short term profits, that is their perogative. If the customers become dissatisfied enough over the service provided or as they (the market) can no longer bear the prices the company will be forced to reevaluate their pricing and quality of service offered .....that is simply the mechanics of business.

I will at least give them this, they are listening or at least giving that impression before they extend a final statement. I dont know many other companies that announce a price increase then request feedback and consider making a change to the original policy.

I really dont care why they are increasing the prices. They can give whatever reason they want. ((utilities tell me I get price increases because of strains on resources too and for all I know the executive wanted a new jet))

I personally dont agree with such a huge increase in pricing. Abuses or not, increased drain on resources or not. It is affecting me as a customer and I am not satisfied, therefore I will no longer buy that particular service until I am satisfied with the service and its pricing structure. In other words I am not satisfied and I (this tiny portion of the market) cant and wont bear it.

It is my hope that LL will improve the quality of the service and offer a more fair price for those services. (many here have given suggestions that would both benefit he customer and still allow LL to make a nice profit ) As there is no competition it is at least their moral obligation as a monopoly to not gouge their customers.

It is also in there long term best interest to maintain good customer relations in the wake of future competition. The way I see it, they can either 1) suck the market for all it is worth while there are no competitors, make huge short term profits and possibly destroy future customer bases or 2) Make healthy non-gouging profits and try to maintain good customer relations thereby increasing their potential future success and long term profits when the competitors do appear. I dont know how the top level management at LL approaches these things but as a former top level executive, I would opt for #two, but then I am a long term strategy kind of gal.

So really when you come down to it this is a customer relations, PR, marketing problem for them. They must weigh out their current desired profit margins against the long term affects on the above. Therefore what is the highest profit margin they can obtain while keeping the customer happy.

PS LL, if you need a new top level manager I am available

Which Linden is your alt?

I very much doubt if Vryl is a Linden alt. Her main store is on an OpenSim. I have a feeling that she might be the poster girl for those who really ARE abusing OS sims... heavy texture load, scripts, store, big transparent build... you name it. If they come up with a two tier system for abusers/non-abusers, she has two hope of being in the latter category - Bob and NO.
~Cali~

The above has my vote! If needed, a price increase for new OS orders, fine. But make it a reasonable increase, something like 10% at the most.

What did your antitrust lawyer say?

That we have spent more than enough time complaining and it is time to move on to resolutions?

I am interested to hear how the legal action that you told us all about during the first day of this is coming along.

Most times when one consults an attorney, the attorney tells the client to zip their lips about the case, if there is to be a case.

So is there going to be a case? Just wondering.

Snowflake, that is a good question. As for myself only and I can only speak for myself.. I am not, nor did I ever once say that I am taking legal recourse against Linden Lab. I mentioned that others possibly could and what has happened could be seen or challenged in a court of law as AntiTrust violation. It still could. Any contract or business decisions which are seen as unethical can be challenged. That does not necessarily mean that the judgement will go in the favor of teh plantiff.

Personally, I would just like to see us all move on beyond the constant bickering and fighting and works towards a possible realistic resolution which is fair to all.

As for my attorney, he was not here to file a case against LL, at least not on my behalf. I cannot speak if he has new clients or not. He was orginally here to help draft a peaceful petition to give to LL. I feel the message has been lost in all of the muck. I'm not even sure a petition would make any difference. LL can plainly see what is going on without a petition or massive protests. We have had a week of that and we are getting basically nowhere. Personally, and I don't know how the rest feel, I would like to see us move forward and work towards some feasible middle ground.