The Question of Land Cutting

To Anny

"oh thats new to me, i can change the land on mainland? i can build a cellar or a mountain there?"
yes right click the ground and edit terrain. you can also just sink the boxes to just below the surface without wasting prims.

Unfortunately, in more than 99% of the mainland regions, the terrain raise/lower limit is set to 4m up or down from the baked terrain. In the rest, primarily old mainland and some of the new "elite" regions, it is 40m.

However, that doesn't, by itself make mainland that much less attractive than estates; it is a limit I am comfortable working within.

1.yes, I do agree that land cutting needs to be a violation.
2. yes, sometimes I will cut sections in my land to be able to place different media to be watched in each section.
3. not necessarily, unless the person is trying to sell it.

While mere ownership of an already-cut small plot shouldn't be a violation, a lot of times these people are just second generation scum trying to pick up on profit. If they mangle the terraforming, with or without it being for sale, the subtext of the action is extortion/harassment or otherwise goading the neighbors into purchasing the land.

While I see that selling off small parcels to avoid tiering up is a good reason to sell them, in this day and age where you can rent tier to/from an established and reliable land baron (Elanthius Flagstaff), I would never do it again. I would probably just rent the tier to cover the excess, depending on how much it is. However, not everyone knows about it. So long as it is sold at market rate or better, I wouldn't punish someone selling a small parcel.

So where on the mainland is 1600 for a 16 m2 not a ridiculously high price?

not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but Governor Linden has a 16m2 parcel in Voss with public access disabled, quite annoying actually

I have never heard anything so well put! Bravo! One can only HOPE Linden Labs takes time to read these views......

I think anyone who doesn't see that the tiny plot for L$100,000 amongst normal size lots is a problem is not paying attention.

But there are a lot of useful, valid, and currently implemented reasons for need to make small plots.

Why not make it so you can't sell anything smaller than a 512, but you can divide them up all you want otherwise?

I can't see why people would be purchasing plots under 512 anyway.

I am surprised to see you say:





In the same post that you said:

Here are my opinions on the questions you posed:

* Do you agree in principle that land cutting needs to be a violation?

YES.

* Are there any legitimate reasons for land cutting (excluding profit) that we should consider when setting policy?

The only reason I've heard that sounds legitimate is having separate media streams within an overall parcel. Seems okay as long as the subdivisions are not set for sale and don't have ban lines.

* With land that is already cut up, but still mostly owned by the resident that cut it, should we ask that the land be joined back together?

YES.

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Further thoughts: I'm not sure how you can tell who originally cut up parcels - a possible enforcement problem? Wouldn't it be easier to do a technical fix so that parcels below 256m size CANNOT be set for sale and CANNOT have ban lines?

(By the way, I didn't have time to read the zillion pages of comments, sorry if I'm repeating - count it as a vote!)

This policy is long overdue, so thanks a lot for getting this going, Jack.

It's probably a parcel that got reclaimed from an ad farmer but didn't get reset properly. Just do a support ticket and they'll come by and fix it.

I have seen a number of good reasons to cut up land. I, myself, have cut land into 200m2 (or around that) below shops in malls so that the shops could have their own media settings. When I sold the land, I merged them all back together. So INTENT is very important in this discussion.

I also saw one for chopping a piece off to sell so that you won't go over your tier when you purchase another piece in another sim. Again, an INTENT thing. And chopping off one small piece is, imo, acceptable.

I think this is a very slippery thing we are talking about. And, not nearly as serious as Ad Farms.

The final TOS ruling, imo, needs to address the INTENT and not the Action.

A one prim vender on a 16m roadside plot is not an unreasonable thing in some regions.

I sell radios from small plots in a few regions and will likely set up a few more in some others. A few hundred of our plots are in excellent areas, because they are suited to the surroundings without being annoying.

We are always in the market for these plots and are willing to pay premium prices, but never, ever, buy at inflated or extortive prices. Normally 2x base market value but we will pay higher for exceptional plots, especially if means preserving them from extortionists or included into our network.

We pay tier, we respect the neighbors, by answering to their concerns by trades etc, and our network operates within the rules. We make every effort to be discrete. We have never been involved with cutting or annoying ads. We never broke any rules in our history.

We are legitimate by every aspect.

Price capping rules, if anything won't affect us, because we don't pay extortion prices to begin with, but it could unfairly obstruct us from expanding our network. The ninja bots have gained an unfair advantage over us, because they "cut" otherwise bigger plots in new sims at below market value prices, where we buy from search at premium prices.
LL likely considered micro-networks, The Arbor Project and others in this decision, which is why they made the act of "cutting" and "collectively" reselling their operative words.

Just how much cutting is good and bad? If I buy a 32, cut it in half and sell 16, at the same price I paid for the 32 or less, should be considered reasonable. Buying a 512, hacking a corner off and selling the 496... is questionable, even if you don't resell the 16m. "Cornering" is a trick the extrotionists like to use in preference to "donutting". Jagged borders along Linden areas are often cut, which actually helps "square up" lots in some cases, or leaves the 16 with one or more sides on Linden land.

Perhaps the terms "donutting" and "cornering" should be applied to new rules as guidelines for enforcement.

The solution should be a discretional one, as opposed to a technical fix. LL knows who the worst offenders are.

Technical solutions mean workarounds by griefers and bugs for the rest of us in an already bloated application. Buy a 512, and sell a 16m plot one at a time, for example. Single plots often sell quick, even at high prices especially if they appear to be the only plot available in the sim. Then they set another 16m beside it, with something annoying, extortive or whatever. Eventually, you'll end up with a messy underworld ad farm anyway.

Most of us can live with a handful of 16m plots in appropriate areas, but the days of mass checkerboarding backlots and devaluing new sims, *touch wood* are gone.

FWIW, I recently went shopping for a small parcel, and decided 144m2 was the minimum useful size of a parcel. That's the minimum size that you can fit a 10x10m prim on, but more importantly, it's the minimum size you need to rez a vehicle. Since LL actively discourages the use of its roads and seas by preventing rez, you need a small parcel near the road or sea to be able to engage in such activities. Well, yes, you can fly around and usually find someone who's left rezzing enabled, but it's a pain. It's nice to just have a known place you can go to without fuss.

I mention this since there seem to be a lot of people who think 512m2 or 256m2 are appropriate lower limits. That's too high. Someone else may think 144m2 is too high, I don't know, but I do know anything over 144m2 is too high. I don't want to see parcels of those small but usable sizes hurt by any action you make take.

FYI..Linden Labs will seize your land under the following circumstances... if your neighbour harasses you over and over by surrounding your land with megaprims, sending out libellous announcements, using 'security' scripts to harass, banning you etc..and you make multiple AR complaints they will seize your land to "stop the problem".
Thats what happened to me... and now my neighbour continues to do it to get my other adjoining plots

So if you want a plot - start with enclosing it... there is a 'rule' about 3 sides not 4..but you can get around that by enclosing with a circular megaprim and cutting it to leave a 2 metre gap... that was enough for AR team to not action it.

I feel that in certain situations, specifically with regard to parcel settings (media settings, rezzing permissions, etc.), landcutting is acceptable. However, I do NOT feel that landcutting for the purposes of land-griefing & extortion should not be permitted.

My suggestions for the policy on landcutting:

1) A graduated restriction on land prices. For example, 1L$/ sq. m if the parcel is 64 sq. m or less, 1.5L$/ sq. m for 80-128 sq. m, 2L$/ sq. m for 144-256 sq. m, & 2.5L$/sq. m for 272-496 sq. m. Trying to circumvent pricing restrictions (e.g. extortion) should be a violation of the TOS.

2) Banlines & terraforming should be restricted on parcels below a certain size (say 128 sq. m or less). Any plot cut below that size should have its terraforming automatically revert (assuming that's possible), and use of terraforming scripts on such parcels should be a violation of the TOS. Banlines on such parcels must be off.

At present organisations like Rezads are able to maintain networks of more than fifty adsites by organise outside worse. Linden labs gives away the network signs on its shopping sites. these ads are often innapropriate featuring for example nude photographs. similarily one does not have to go far to find Sims with more thjan one set of glowing purple crystals again there there are far more than 50 in total. ccould you explain way multiple glowing crystals are not automaticaly removed and action taken to stop this visual spam It seems to meLinden labs should be reviewing its advertising/visual spam policy before it is once more fully circumvented.

While fully recognising that land cutting can and does take place for legitimate reasons. I would support policies to stop unnessecarry land cutting. given the often slow reponse time of the abuse teams, things are often Ar'd several times over a number of weeks before action is taken. I would favour economic and software aproaches to the problem computers don't sleep the ar team does..




1) all land on sale should incurr a fee of ten lindens every full week that it is for sale.
this will increase the costs of adcutters disproptionately.

2) it should not be possible to place nonecontiginous land on the market. this should include includes Linden auctions. at present linden labs do this far to often.
Failing this it should be explicitly fraud not to reveal in decription of land for sale tif land is divded over several locations.


3) extreme landscaping must be addressed. It should be possible to put in a ticket requsting a linden to use their discretion to landscape within 8 meters either side of a boundary.


4)disallowing scripts an object entry or using ban lines for harrassment purposes should be addressed more comrehensively


5)Owners of land parcels less than 216 should be obligated to accept land swap offers for the same amount of contigous land elsewhere in the sim.

A free automated Land escrow serviice to avoid excess tier during land swaps would improve the land market.

I vote for this as well. Banlines down please on any land set for sale.

~o~

1. Do you agree in principle that land cutting needs to be a violation?
   

YES if the said land is a grouping of parcels set for sale. The question is what size? If a person owns a whole mainland sim and cuts it all into 512's will it be a violation or is this a micro parcel rule.. example parcels under a certain size? Not fair to prevent people from cutting up 1/4 sims and resell them? Please be specific.

1. Are there any legitimate reasons for land cutting (excluding profit) that we should consider when setting policy?
   

People cut parcels all the time for use in malls and rental communities to give people there own parcels with media control.

1. With land that is already cut up, but still mostly owned by the resident that cut it, should we ask that the land be joined back together?
   

How is that even possible? The zig zag cuts along the roadside can't all be joined back anyway at this point. See my previous post

The only good use for the 16m parcel is a Rezzing Area in stores. Otherwise, you can't even put an outhouse in one.

Forbid anything smaller than 512m unless it is surrounded by larger parcel owned by the same person. Or set it up so you need a Linden override to create any section smaller than 512m.

My question is:

Future measures will be retroactives?

I think someone needs to come up with a better buzzword than "land cutting."

Any land 32m or larger can be "cut" into smaller parcels, so the term isn't tailored to the activity it represents. For all intents and purposes, anyone could purchase a large parcel of land and cut it into smaller pieces for a variety of reasons. The term is more inclusive than it's given definition in this case. And, of course, it just sounds silly. Is that a "BIG SPACESHIP" buzzword? I sure hope not. That would mean LL actually paid for it.

This problem can be solved with a technical solution in minutes. Why bother making silly rules and policing it?

If you have trouble finding a simple technical solution I suggest you resign and hire any 3rd grader to do it for you.

If, however, this is just another, "let's pretend we care about the residents and ask them stupid questions" kinda deal, then ignore me.

LAND CUTTING- I'm not sure that land cutting needs to be a violation....there is a multitude of reasons people cut up their land....BUT making it a violation to SELL these cut up parcels might be a better way to go or setting 512sq/m as the smallest size of SELLABLE land might be an even better way to go.

I own approx 160,000 sq/m in seven regions on the mainland...every one of these regions has some idiot trying to sell tiny 16 sq/m parcels for an outrageous price. They are used to block and used for extort $L from honest players.
PLEASE....set some realistic policy to end this practice.
The mainland looks like hell because of this.
People like me have spent alot of bucks to build nice venues on the mainland only to have these people muck it all up.

One more thought...
What are you planning on doing with all the existing 16 sq.m parcels???
I think a solution to these existing parcels needs to be addressed along with any new rules or restrictions... get in all done at once.
BTW...I've noticed many of these tiny parcels that have been abandoned or have been forfeited back to Governor Linden...maybe you could give these bits to larger adjacent landowners once you rectify this issue