Big Prims

Considering that the 'huge prims' are frequently in use around the grid for those using hacked clients, those of us that 'play fair' are either restricted to the few 'set sizes' that are out there, or not use them at all.

Given that any opportunity to save data, multiplied by 40,000 concurrent users, might be a good thing, may I make the following observation and suggestion.

Currently a 40x30m floor requires 12 prims. One big prim of the same size would use just 1/12th of that data - something especially useful in busy areas.

As a 'static prim' creates no server load, only client load, I see no obvious disadvantage to allowing users to create prims much larger than 10x10x10 (even if it's maxxed to 64m in any direction, a convenient computer number and ties in with 4m land squares), perhaps just include the proviso that nothing over 10m in any direction can have physics enabled in case of any unexpected side-effects.

Being a builder myself... I know that many people would love to save prims on otherwise boring things like plain floors and walls, and use them for detailing instead.

Broccoli

Just one observation Broccoli and shoot me down if I'm wrong and some questions. At the moment you can intrude into neighbouring land by @35 metres without your neighbours' land being able to autoreturn that object? 4 linked 10x10 prims with the core prim being at one end and it's centre residing on your own land; 10+10+10+4.99999999999. With giant prims this problem becomes of even greater proportion maybe even completely crossing/covering neighbouring lands.

My question would be (not being a completely techy guy) do giant prims at the moment cause lag on the client or server side as I'm frequently told this by other residents in a SIM that employs giant prims in the majority of it's build? Secondly how could the "no physics" rule in a 10+x10+ prim be policed and/or enforced?

In whole though I agree with your view and it was one of the first things that I wondered about when I first started building that why there was a 10x10 restraint.

Assuming that the 'linked set' doesn't change, then I would tend to agree with the theory that if a prim is overhanging your land by 1m or 20m, it can be 'abuse reported' still.

How can "no physics" be enforced? I'm not a coder but I guess that a simple check to force 'physics off' if X, Y or Z are >10.00 wouldn't be too much of a difficult thing to hard-code into the official client.

I'm not 100% sure whether it's client or server side that prims cause lag - I would guess a part of both - but I honestly can't see that one 40x40 prim sitting there doing nothing would be more trouble than 16 10x10 prims sitting there doing nothing.

That's why we ask these sort of questions here, in the hope of getting an answer

Broccoli

No need of hacked client, if you wanna use huge prims you can just do it.
The thing is that even if the server side limit is removed, the physic engine will still not support them.


Comparing a 100m box to a 10m box is like comparing a 10m box to a 1m box, really nothing specific.
For the server, 1 prim is 1 prim. For the client, the bigger a prim is the more there is to draw, but way less than if it was the same volume made of smaller prims.
Concerning physics, it's the same as IRL, drop a stone and it will bounce, drop a 1000 ton rock and it will stay where it fell.

That was my guess, hence the suggestion to disable physics on anything over 10m in any direction.

Broccoli

But what for ? What's the issue with physical huge prims ?
(physical and non-phantom must not be confused)

PS: The thing that is not supported for huge prims is the... phantomation of the hollowed, cut etc parts. Other than that they are subject to collision and gravity.

I would really like to hear Cory answer this specific question. Or maybe Philip since he's the guy with the educational background in physics. I've never been able to find a real answer to it. My suspicion however is that the physics engine itself doesn't know how to calculate mass of an object larger than 10m on any given plane, because as far as it's concerned, such an object doesn't exist. Maybe Havok 2, which I understand is "on the roadmap " will be able to address this and allow for larger prim sizes. Even 20m would revolutionize how builds are done, from an efficiency standpoint, probably even more so than the blessed sculpted prim. Griefing aside, are there any *real* obstacles in the way of larger prims being introduced into the mainstream?

It exists as soon as it is rezzed. To calculate the mass the engine only needs the prim's shape and size.
With llGetMass() I was able to get the mass of a 10m box (10000.006836) and the mass of a 50m box (1250001.000000). Now not sure that the second is accurate...

I am the lead architect of IBM Italia island. We are using selected megaprim for buildings. They save a lot of prims, time, and do not create any lag problem at all. Of course, megaprims should be limited to island owners to avoid to use it in an unappropriate way. However they are a significant saving when you have to create buildings...

In my opinion, it should be possible for the owner of an island to create prims up to 40x40, to be used ONLY in his/her own island. Preventing take copy by others could be a way to prevent unappropriate usage.

No no no, I'm on the mainland and I wanna use huge prims.
Beside, there's no prim issue, only parcel issue.

LL's main reasons are:
1: Draw distance. If the center of a megaprim is outside your draw distance, it won't be drawn. Solution: Limit the maximum distance to center to 64 m.
2: Sim borders. A sim only checks the first 10 meters of the bordering sim for data to send the client about what objects exist over the border.



Read the bolded section of Sy's post.

Yikes!!!!

Just rezzed a 'big pink dot" in a sandbox..... got scared and deleted it straight away before I had a chance to see what it was exactly!

What is it? Flat pink cylinder? Sphere? How big exactly? All I saw was the whole of the sandbox covered in pink......

Just curious..... but not brave enough to have another go!

Absolutely, completely, totally, categorically NO.

What guarantee is there that any island owner will use them 'appropriately'? None, that I can think of. All users, or no users, should have access to 'megaprims'.

Are you going to turn this into another "verified v unverified" argument (which is equally weak) just because you happen to be involved with someone that has a large income to throw at SL. I would hazard a guess, overall, that what I contribute to SL is as much if not more than you are.

Broccoli

The way it is right now, all users, mainland or island, already have access to them. Linden Lab will only get involved if they are being abused, or if they are causing issues on the simulator. Otherwise, they're yours for the using.

As far as I am aware, no "new" megaprims are being produced. The "feature" which allowed this to occur had been patched, server side, so no client hack would be able to do it. Maybe I'm wrong.. ?

I am asking for the ability to create larger prims to be implemented as an official client feature, rather than having to use the very limited 'big prims' set that is available if you know where to look.

As it seems that they *don't* cause any problems - except for the potential for more grief than regular prims - unless there are technical reasons why they can't be implemented that we aren't aware of, then they should be enabled. That's why I asked the technical question, in the hope that someone will provide the answer, and if all goes to plan, implement it in a future client update.

Broccoli

Havoc 1, the physics engine upon which SL is based, cannot handle prims larger than 10x10x10. This doesn't just affect the "physical" attribute, it also affects hollows, path cuts, etc done on larger prims - if you hollow out a 20x20x.5 cylinder, all the way up to 90, the actual passable opening will be the same size as if you had hollowed a 10x10x.5 cylinder to 90. This may be something that can be fixed trivially in the server-side; however, experience with 3d worlds tells me that nothing involving collision or bounding-box checking is truly trivial.

It just guarantee that you are not garbaging sandboxes and other public buildable areas wuith huge prims. Also you should not build prims across your parcel borders. Of course, if you can find a way to avoid the usage of bif prims in sandboxes, where you would take room to other people, and you would avoid a huge prim can cross a parcel border to overlap on sopmeone else's land, it is ok that everybody can use them.



Well, would you use a bomb in your own house? I think you don't.



I do not understand what you mean. I do not know what you do in SL, nor I am debating about major or minor contribute. I probably have not an income larger than yours, and in any case I do not care. I am just trying to understand how to avoid to use megaprim in a way that is damaging other people. Megaprims are really useful if used with wiseness, but they can be weapons too.

I understand that prims abe the building blocks here in sl. What I don't quite get is how does LL come up with the ratio 117 per 512 >piece of land?
I am sure there is a very logical answer.

ROFL

That'll keep me giggling all night!

Hi all,

I got them from a friend and he warned direct about the big ones, when ever i see someone build with mega-prims, I always warn them.

And to my supprise they have the whole set, but mostly did not know about the danger.

If used with care super, but yeah griefers can use them to and then a linden is needed
to delete the big-ones.

I wonder if it cannot be done server-side to refuse the dangerous sizes.

And yes I agree it would be super to have more freedom in prim sizes, if we just could double 10 max to 20 max.....

15,000 prims per sim.

As far as megaprims go, I agree with Brocolli - they should not be restricted to just the landed wealthy. There is no good reason why people can't use them if they are using them wisely. Take the word megaprim and replace it with "script" or "orbit weapon" or anything else. It's how it is used that makes it bad, not who is using it, and there is also no conceivable way of policing such a lopsided use as suggested.

As for allowing them at all, I think the way it is now is just fine. There is a nice folder of them you can get just about anywhere, just ask around. Giant sphere, giant flats, giant cubes, what more is really needed? If anything, the selection should be scaled back so as not to allow the griefable megaprims, such as the "infinite plane", that just cause problems. But the giant wedge and the 20x20x5? What's the problem there? They reduce lag, save prims, and you have to be a rude idiot to abuse them. I use them all the time to great effect.

I personally would be even more fed up than I am now with SL if they started modifying the client to allow creation of bigger prims, as the whole point of this forum is about how they keep upping our "tools" at the expense of our functionality. Why ask for more crashes? Let them stabilize what we have FIRST!

How is it affected ?


This I didn't know, it appears that the cylinder and the prism have phantom hollow !


15000 prims per region is probably what a simulator can handle without lagging.