A suggestion on Private parcels with invisible bounaries.

Dear Linden labs,

A major part of my second life involes traversing the SL universe, Flying is one of my greatest passions, but ever since the introduction of invisible barriers around private status parcels, it is becoming increasingly less immerive experience for me as I am always ramming into them and getting booted off my flying balloon.

I have thought of a solution that would make property owners and adventures happier I believe. In the real world, everyone has a private right to their property, and governments have rights to the skies above those properties, but Second Life is beyond real life. It can be more than our difficult realities.

I would like to request the implemention of a new feature for property owners who wish to mark their parcel private. Here are some examples I believe might make both parties satisfied.

Current SL issue: Jane would like to make her property closed and only available to her friends and family members. The problem is, if she makes her property private, Solara who's sailing the blue skies in her beautiful balloon might end up crashing into Janes invisible boundary 300 meters up.

We can see from this example that becuase Jane wants to make her property private, she is impeding on other player's enjoyment of SL. Here is a scenario I have come up with which would make SL alot less laggier and funner for everyone.

Solara's Second life: Jane would like to make her property closed and only available to her friends and family members. When she activates the private mode, her parcel will vanish and be replaced with an open parcel (maybe covered with some simple forest for eye candy) until Jane deactivates the private mode. During the private mode, Only the people on Jane's private roster will see the parcel from their viewport while those not on her roster will see a beautiful forest that they can traverse. Jane and her friends are happier, and Solarra floating above in her beautiful balloon is happy with her uninterrupted flight! Also, Since since forested parcel has less prims than a parcel with some architecture, it will reduce the lag for those who are not on Jane's private roster for the time being.

This can work for islands too!!!! Private islands can vanish when in private mode.

If you implement this feature. you can lift the invisible boundaries on all sims and islands and allows players to fly their aircrafts through any part of the sim without adversely affecting those who do not wish to be disturbed with flying aircraft!!!! I'm sure all the adventurers would love this feature for they could travel nonstop to any part of the SL grid!!!!!

So this would reduce lag by replacing objects with trees? Why not just have an empty parcel?

I think you are forgetting a major factor though. When a parcel is in private mode, the sim has to track 2 seperate "realities" the size of the parcel, and keep them seperate. The calculations on who can see what, who can see who and who can hear who become more complex as well as the calculations on who can interact with which objects. This will not reduce lag, it'll send it through the roof.

But that will be more of a cpu based than graphic protocal wouldn't it? I think the footprint would be a lot less since it's nothing more than scripting commands while the primmed parcel would cause more resource intensive procedures on the client end.

The sim processing and the client processing are seperate. On the client end, some excessive processing will cause you to run a bit slow. On the sim end, excessive processing will kill the game for everybody.

Having 20 clients processing some graphics is less damaging to performance than having the sim overloaded, even if each client has a huge amount of processing to do. The sim is central to pretty much everything. If the sim is overloaded, everyone in the sim will suffer with TPs failing, scripts being lagged, rezzing failing etc.

This would actually lead to more sim load than simply processing 2 views for each parcel. The sim would have to track a sim wide view for each person in the sim based on their access to various parcels.

The load would not be limited to just the one sim either. TPs in from other sims would hold sockets open for however long the TP takes to complete or fail, requests to the database would tie up connections and slow down requests from other sims. Both sockets and database connections are a limited resource. Both can become backlogged by slow connections. This is why overloading the sim is a lot worse than overloading a client.

Mm....no it doesn't.
Person on the list: server sends parcel data as normal.
Person not on the list: server sends.................nothing.
Person on the list when someone not on the list flies by: server doesn't send the data of the person not on the list to the person on the list.

Only issue LL has seen is if one person is on the list and another isn't and they are friends. They will see different things and be confused.

If you look at the opensource code or the libsecondlife you will see that data is sent to the client is about 12 sims (what you would see if client draw is set to 512) the client just doesn't render them until needed. I assume the reason for this is to precache sims for you and improve performance on the client side. The client decode the parcel info, the server really don't care, it's just a data string dump which is more effective in the long run.

And if you look at all the "invisible parcel" propositions you'll see that the SERVER knows whether or not an avatar is allowed into the parcel (you bounce off, no?) and therefor can based on that NOT SEND the information inside that parcel, then the client doesn't have it and therefore can't render it. Doesn't matter what the server does send, it's always possible to limit that.

What bugs me about this poll is the one-sidedness of the wording. I hope that was done as a joke.

Having said that, it's not the worst idea I've heard, having "No entry" parcels be invisible to all but those allowed in. I'm assuming that this would go the other way as well, and that people flying through would be invisible to those in there, else it would be pretty useless. Picture it. You're having some quiet time with friends, or building something or whatever and dum-de-dum here comes someone in a balloon, flying right through you.

The problems I can see with this is: How would it be done and would it, in fact reduce server load?
Would the "Be invisible" thing be hackable into something along the lines of the "Phase through walls" thing we had a while ago. I can just see some shmuck figgering out a way to become completely invisible and running around blowing people up.
Would this change the way SL is now. I know that one of the nice things about travelling is seeing all the cool stuff people have built and the downfall is all the incredibly ugly stuff others have done. I know there are a couple of things that I'd rather not see when I'm online. If this gets instituted, would it wipe out the landscape, leaving only large packets of trees? I know I would be more tempted to make my stuff invisible if this were implemented.

Anyway, good idea, but I'm not 100% sure it's feasible. It's an interesting point to think on, though. Just wish you had worded the poll a little more objectively and not vilified those that choose to make their land private.

No. If done right you'd only be invisible to people on the "allow" list only while on the land that has access controls enabled (or you're on the ban list) and they'd be invisible to that person. There is the issue of "what do scripts see?" But that can easily be a few lines that checks the script owner against the ban/access and applieis the same "view" to the script.

The entire proceedure should be server side, and thus, no hack.

Actually this could speed up many access restriction heavy sims by quite a fair amount. Since by default the sim simply doesn't have to send any data for restricted parcels whatsoever. Then, if you enter the parcel and have rights to be there, it can send you the content of that parcel. This would mean a huge amount of content you can't really get to anyway will not be visible to you in the first place. Only downside being you'd have to go onto a restricted parcel before you'd see its contents, but that isn't a big deal IMO as once you've been on it it'll all be visible.

However, while is acceptable as a solution I'm still not sure it's my preferred option, I'm still more for a 3d zoning solution.

I like flying too, even if its just with my avatar. The thing i dont like about restricted parcels is you cant see the lines until you smash into them lots of times.

Maybe an easier solution would simply be to replace the texture people see on the walls from the outside, maybe some kind of building like texture so it looks like a huge building from the outside. Client shouldnt have to draw the contents inside if it looks like a big box.

Would be a lot easier to see them so you can steer around them.

Yes but then you end up with a landscape full of big boxes to look at which would uglify SL in no time. Yes...uglify is a technical term! : -D

I actually thought an idea I heard in another forum works the best. Keep the boundary lines invisible, but lower the maximum height to 5m above the highest structure on the parcel. This would really be little different than the rules for aircraft in RL, where laws (and common sense) prevent planes from flying too close to buildings. It definitely keeps people off the land, but fliers have no additional burden save to fly high enough to avoid structures they can see to avoid anyway.

There has to be workable soulution somewhere that would allow property owners access control, but also allow people to pass over at a reasonable altitude. (or sail past if on the water). I wish I had the solotion.

This is my favourite solution so far. But I don't think I would have forest I think I would have something to show there is a parcel there which is set to private. A forect might be completely out of keeping with the surrounding environment anyway. I think pixelate or fog out the private area would be the most informative way of doing it. And since the artefactual fogging or whatever would be handled by the client in response to being told the parcel data is unavailable, it could be configurable in preferences. Those who want the parcel filled with trees could have it

In most cases the parcel fences seem useless to begin with,cause on most properties (small residences) you can still effect people thru the borders anyway,unless they have turned off scripts on the land or one of the other options in the about land menu.Even then you can detach camera for privacy invasion,which defeats the purpose most put them up for anyway,as well as hit them with a high end weapon(it doesn't even provide total safety).Another mentioned the fact about hanging out and chattin with friends only to have someone fly into them with a balloon,c'mon, that may happen but i don't believe its a common occurence and if it is then maybe its the neighborhood your in,and maybe you should consider a different spot,there are plenty of places to hang out and chat(unless you mean have sex by chat).I own a few chunks of SL land ,and will not put the fences up,cause I too like to fly around and enjoy the aircraft I build(quit, cause of no Large open places to enjoy), and i believe in do unto others as you'd have done unto you.I would rather loggout ,and play my JANES WWII FIGHTERS(NO LAG OR FENCES).I already don't believe people should be so obsessed with having sex using a fricken cartoon,I mean c'mon ,get out of the fricken chair and go experience RL for godsake,the real thing feels better than your hand,take my word for it,and let the fences DOWN.What other reason would someone want to put the fences up for, if not to hide indecent behaviour or just plain ignorance(believing its the thing to do just cause),no one can move your items unless you give permission, and don't give me that ,they leave they're garbage thing.All of that can be controlled thru the land options.Why don't they dedicate one of the three mainlands or a large section for those who choose the privacy factor.I've seen land with trees and a bench on it ,parcel fenced,what the hell for?I feel the bottom line here is the fences are almost completely useless anyway.Don't get me wrong people, don't really care if this is the only way you can have sex, I don't have to watch,but your banned parcels piss me off (if you have a fence up,yeh,I'm talking to you),when my plane is zapped back to my inventory, and some gliche hangs me up in the great blue void,sometimes causing me to relog.Maybe some who have them up will actually read this stuff,but I doubt it cause i believe those attracted to this thread, are those bothered by that fact, and seek a solution,not the blissfully ignorant ones who fence their land,and heck ,the Lindens hardly handle customer service well enough,let alone this issue here.I think we're calling on a cold day in hell.The unlimited possibilities they spoke of have now become limited,just read some of the other threads,wow.This game seems to be getting less attractive the more i read, or play.

Please, for the love of God and all that is Holy in the world, PUT SOME SPACE BETWEEN SENTECES!

*Wall of unreadable text crits Draco for death*

You could have flown between 200m and 600m on mine but well.. someone demanding I lose all privacy and security done ruined that. I paid for the parcel. I don't want you flying over it.

You didn't pay for the parcel. You have no say.

Object entry - off.

Your solution adds more lag..so that must put you in the second option, OP.

I personally votes option 3: I want my privacy and security, and for noone to fly over my parcel uner 768m.

Does my lack of punctuation really bother you that much? What does crits mean? And i don't belive I've ever heard of the word senteces. Trying to figure out what partial words are CRITS a headache for me. Do unto others as is done unto you. I spaced these sentences so I don't crit you to death. Can you spell better for me? If you can't read it ,move on,but for the love of your god ,this isn't the place for insults or writer schooling,its a discussion. Sorry for this inconvenience everyone.

My appologies for misspelling "sentences." I am a poor typer, this I know (and a bad speller to boot), but I do my best.

At least I leave breathing room for people to pause and digest.

(Number of corrections in this post: at least 13)

Bear - I haven't bothers to read your posts. And I won't until you use punctuation and spacing. Typoes, mispelling, even some mispunctuation is ok.. but I'm not giving myself a headache reading either of your posts as is.

I was one of the first to build on a lovely little island. With time new residents arrived and the open land slowly became a residential area. I liked to have a fly in the evening to have a look at the changes and to meet some new neighbors. Then came the first barb wires NO ENTRY. At first I flew around them but as time went by they became so numerous that the island changed into a glass wall labyrinth. The experience of being hit out of the blue by a sudden wall of barb wire is quite brutal. I stopped flying. Today my closest neighbor has sent up a fence. When I sit in my garden I see the landscape with red stripes NO ENTRY NO ENTRY NO ENTRY. Fortunately all of my neighbors haven't yet set up fences. But imagine they do ... I would be trapped in my land as in a fish bowl !
I fully support any idea to suppress exclusion from SL. I favor the most extreme solution, to remove the function altogether. But I also support the idea of hiding private areas or limiting them to 5 meters above the highest object and allowing a user not to display the barb wire.

Personally I'd like truly private areas, where noone thats not in group or on access can cam into or hear.. By doing these as a 'basement' or 'phantom zone' I could support removal of ban lines aside from this. It would give true privacy, as well as satisfy travellers, since the land itself would be accessible to pass by (save by those specifically banned - that should never be removed) but the private areas and homes could remain such.

Wow, What an apt discription. I made a HUD to alert me of direction of glass walls but sims were allways too laggy, the script would never run fast enough for me to fly at any reasonable speed.

This isn't a bad discussion but why is it under Town Hall feedback? It really belongs under SL Forums -Feature Suggestion.

Of course I suspect you think 1) Lindens or particular Lindens read and care more about Town Hall Feedback then Feature Suggestions... And of course, it is possible they ignore the communication channels they designed and implemented...

Access restrictions only extend 50ish metres above ground level.

At 300 meters up Jane wouldn't be bothered with access restrictions at all. The issue you're describing doesn't exist.

You can turn object entry off and that will impact vehicles at any height, but then that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with access restrictions.