Town Hall Topics- Present & Future

First, thank you Lindens for this. I speak ONLY for myself, but I appreciate the fact it takes both courage and intelligence to do this and give us a chance to air our concerns. Had the people in Whitehall [or wherever the British Parliament is located] and Versailles listened, both the American and French Revolutions would probably have never happened. Thank you.

Second, I HOPE and PRAY that discourse will be civil and rational. Nothing will be accomplished whatsoever if the Town Hall Meeting or any other efforts to comminicate denegrates into a sesion of throwing verbal or written bombs at LL.

Third, so far as I am concerned I see two major sets of problems. I will label them technical problems and social problems. There is a bit of cross pollination in both sets, but I believe MOST of the issues can be pigeon holed into one of the above two categories.

Technical problems are the most pressing. I am not technically oriented and am doing a poor job in articulating my views on the technical problems aside from simply saying certain things don't work, work intermitantly, or work poorly. I think the Open Letter ["OL"]addresed the technical issues quite well. If LL recognizes the issues raised in the OL, communicates that they recognize them, begins implementing solutions to those issues, and communicates the implementation, this will be a HUGE step forward and I will applaud it.

There are social issues as well, but they can take a back seat to the technical issues. Among the social issues which I am concerned with are the folowing: (1) Customer Service - it is now either non existent or cavalier; (2) Griefer control - LL needs to takemore affirmative steps to completely and permanently bann those who repreatedly violate TOS and Community Standards. Additionally, both TOS and CS might need toughening up a little; (3) Scams - lately SL has been an all too fertile breeding ground for code based scams which victimize foreign speaking, new or unsophisiticated SL residents. LL needs to be more proactive in preventing this sort of abuse. See (2) above.

One final point. The SL residents are not the enemy. There is a huge amount of people with the technical skills to help LL solve the technical issues as well as the Customer Service Issue. The vast majority of them want to help both LL and the SL residents to make SL a better world. Call on this magnificent resource. As for the social issues, there are people who can help there as well. For example, there is a SL Bar Association. There are experienced attorneys in SL who can HELP with issues like TOS, CS, contract enforcement, scam prevention and so on. They too will be glad to help. I am one of them. It is not axiomatic that lawyers mess up everything they touch. Sometimes we can actually help things. I would like to help.

We all have an opportunity to work together and make a great and wonderful thing even more great, more wonderful.

Thank you once again for listening.

Based on my experience with representatives of corporate America in my legal practice, I am aware that often times these individuals do not like answering questions which they do not control. I hope LL has enough sense to realize theyhave a wild fire on their hands and they can either throw water or gasoline on it. Right now, most people who care about these issues are holding their breath and taking a "wait and see" attitude about theTown Hall. Be advised that in my opinion if the Town Hall is nothing but PR puff ball responses to canned questions and/ or an attempt to derail the OL with a "Gee whiz look at all the features we have in store for you!!" sales pitch, the fire will get much worse.

From my point of view most of the people who have taken time to voice their concerns are at the point that they want and need action now. Vague promises, PR doublespeak and "look at the shiny new toys we have!" will not only be ineffective, they will make the problem worse. LL, please dont go there. Please.

I'm grateful that the open letter forced this dialog. I've never seen the SL Forums.

I'm writing this in lieu of attending the Town Hall meeting myself as it's scheduled at an impossible time. Many of us disagreed with the specifics of the open letter, but signed it anyhow because it carried with it a basic message. Actually, if I'm being honest, it's not a message so much as a demand:

"Make Second Life work without the frequent errors. Do not roll out any new features until you have."


That's it. By the standards of any professional massively-multiplayer environment, it's not too much to ask.


I have two questions for the Town Hall meeting:

1. What is the plan and time schedule for getting Second Life to operate properly? (ie: technical problems being rare things)

2. Can you confirm that the plan is to, in fact, bring Second Life up to a point where it no longer crashes, physics stop failing, Teleports always work (barring full sims), inventories never disappear, we can always log in, etc? Is that the plan at all?


One last comment: at one point I took an informal poll about whether or not people would abandon SL if an equivalent service appeared that promised greater stability. Even though several respondents owned businesses and had larger builds, none said they'd stay if things continued to be this unstable.

I would try to stay away from absolutes like "always work", "never disappear" and things of that nature. Nothing is perfect. We can't expect perfection.

As to your question, if an equivilant service appeared that DELIVERED greater stability, I would leave in a heartbeat.

I fully support both Onder and Suzanne, and I believe that you have both stated simply what most of the griping has been about.

I agree with Onder in that LL should not even countenance any 'new toys' until the current software is stable, supported and predictable. It should be the entire focus of SL, and include a full customer support and assistance program that has a global perspective.

On having read and submitted to the Blogs over the past months of SL disastrous updates, I feel that a committment by LL to concentrating on stabilising the current software would have a positive effect on both resident attitudes to LL (which is at an all-time low), and any future growth.

My concern is that the rollout of the Japanese SL software is going to have a massive impact on an already struggling infrastructure. I am aware that there are Japanese marketers in SL who are ready to push into that market. The lack of stability now will have some impact on that, but there will always be multitudes of the curious who will sign up just to see what all the hooha is about, and that's where things will become difficult for SL as it is at present.

Suzanne's suggestion of using the expertise and support of those of the residents who love SL and want to see it survive and thrive has got to be the most positive thing LL can access.

It may be that those with the technical knowledge who continually make suggestions and complaints in the Blog are LL's strongest allies. Losing them due to offhanded treatment would be disastrous and a shame.

At the moment, Linden Labs has a lot of PR ground to make up with long term residents, and I fully agree with Suzanne - just handing out more of the "look what we're going to bring you" pap will only serve to add fuel to an already-kindled fire.


I won't be adding my questions to the Town Hall as I rather think that they will be the ones every one is asking - about stability.

I'd rather see LL address that one issue solidly and in detail - and without the techno babble - than attempt to address lots of little questions.

my twopenth worth

Every concern expressed so far here is right on target!

We not only need assurances that we still have accessible avenues of communication about bugs/complaints, we NEED to stop having SO much to complain about!

Lindens, we are at a crossroads! This is your best opportunity to repay your loyal subscribers for their eternal patience with your beta-grid love-fest...it is time to make the product worthy of the hype!!!

Thank you, and PLEASE divert all that creative energy (that is currently embracing all the best and worst that management by chaos theory has to offer), focus your efforts, prioritize product quality, not quantity, and get it done!

My question is this (if you choose to redact or edit, dont bother!):

In what new ways, OVER THE LAST FIVE DAYS, have you task-organized your manpower to more effectively resolve these recurring and debillitating grid non-performance issues?

Susanne-rockin' feedback, thanks. I love how you've posited the issues. The following links and such are not intended as an offered solution, but rather pointers. We're listening, and we're in the process of making changes that we feel will facilitate better communication about performance and what you call, social issues (kewl terminology, btw).

1) Point taken on your 4th paragraph.
2) Regarding what you call social issues:
a) check out the changes in abuse reporting and abuse resolution that Daniel and Chadrick blogged about last week:http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/04/20/introducing-estate-level-governance/, http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/04/18/changes-in-abuse-report-resolution/.
b) check out the bazillion blog posts in the last two weeks about changes to support: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/04/27/short-update-from-the-concierge-team/, http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/04/26/introducing-liaison-specialist-teams/, http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/04/25/support-update/, http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/04/24/new-region-down-form-added-to-the-website/.
c) fraud: working, working, and working on that some more. Thanks also for pointing to Resident-based organizations that are actively fighting against scams.

We're indebted to Residents for all of your awesome feedback, which has compelled us to make substantive changes to things like support. You tell us it doesn't work. We try something new. So keep talking to us.
*takes notes*

Wow!! Many thanks Heretic!! Perhaps we have all, collectively, turned a corner here. I believe Effort, Teamwork and Communication will result in success. I define success as a workable, expanding, evolving fun SL; significant financial rewards to the creators and investors; and a fun, meaningful workplace for LL employees.

I believe we're on the right track and I will do anything in my power to help, subject to constraints of job and family responsibilities.

One minor correction however. I'm not aware of any SL orgs who are actively fighting against scams. There are several who have the desire, but LL has the keys to that particular tool box. I do believe there are several SL orgs who would love to help, but LL has to have an involvment too. I am not an officer or any kind of big shot in the SL Bar Assn. and so, cannot speak for them. I think they, among others, could be a valuable resource for help on the scam issue.

Here's hoping Heretic really DOES get the point on number 4. All of my problems that I've had are nothing compared to the frustration I have had with LL's attitude towards customer service. Had they just acknowledged the issues rather than hiding mehind TOS and such, we would not be so angry now.

Rapid Growth is not an excuse. With rapid growth comes rapid income, and some should be spent better on communicating with us how you are solving issues, or more accurately, ACKNOWLEDGING the isses. To date, we have seen unacceptable amounts of dodging issues. avoiding questions, and sweeping things under the rug that LL does not want to hear.

This is what burns me more than anything.

Oh, Heretic, I have done just as you suggested in point 2B) and have not been impressed. To take just one issue: the self-congratulatory blog post from the Concierge team. I have had no response to repeated queries to them for 2 weeks now. I used to, before the supposed 'improvements' to this service.

There seems to be some major disconnection between your perceptions (I don't doubt your good intentions) and the reality. Another example. You shout up your support systems, inter al the phone-based services. Did you know that the UK telephone help line, still listed as available, has in fact been out of service for at least 2 weeks now?

I join with everyone else who is asking you to fix present systems (and that includes support systems) before announcing new ones (and that includes support systems!)

As for people voting with their feet and leaving for a more stable simulation provider...
I won't leave cos I won't be able to since few people cater for Mac users like me. Everyone with a PC will leave you and you'll be left with only Mac owners. Have a care! Do you really want to be stuck with snobby Mac types *grin*!!!

/signed

A first post. I too am unable to attend the town hall, but would see the order of priorities for LL as follows:

1) Integrity. This means: inventories not losing items; vendor functions working correctly every time; etc. These parts of SL should be subject to the same requirements for probity as *any other online banking system*. While items and Linden dollars have no official value, the act of exchanging US$ and L$ gives them a de facto value which makes the integrity of transactions and inventories *essential*.

2) Stability. This means all the usual gripes: client crashes; failed teleports; hair attached to bum after teleport; inability to login; random texture rebakes.

3) Performance. Having IMs and chat items running slowly makes a fluent conversation impossible, and REALLY compromises social intercourse. The whole architectural problem of mapping a server to a sim can't be solved in a hurry, so perhaps the login controls suggested some weeks ago should be used to limit traffic to 30,000 or 35,000 users online at a time. It's clear that the current architecture and technologies won't scale any further.

4) New Features. As has been mentioned by many, there is no clamour for new features for users: rather, there is a clamour for new internal features which will help with items 1-3.


I *am* technical, and have seen plenty of applications where developers have queued up new features before basic architectural and stability issues were addressed. The companies involved (with the exception of Microsoft) always end up out of business - if they won't provide the application with stability issues fixed, someone else will come along and do so.

NO ONE has asked me and they will probably not, especially if they have any brains, but here is how I would go about trying to solve the problems. First, we have a complex set of problems to solve. I try to solve complex problems the same way one would eat an elephant...one bite at a time. In order to do this, the problems have to be identified and then prioritized.

The problems have been identified,clearly, repeatedly. Let's start with those raised by POL [Project open letter].

I believe and many people with vast amounts of technical knowledge beyond mine also believe that many of the technical problems relate to too rapid growth of the community. This makes sense to me. How to fix it? Start by limiting the growth at least until the equipment can catch up to the growth. SL has almost 6,000,000 users. Start asap limiting free accounts. ASAP give new free account holders a set period of time, say 30-90 days [I vote for 30] to upgrade to verified or premium or leave. Track IP addreses so that people dont just keep on creating new free trial accounts when the 30 days expires. This would apply only to NEW accounts, no change for the 6,000,000 who are already here. Increase the fee on premium account holders $1 USD a month. Spend that money on equipment upgrades, customer service, staffing etc.

Make a top ten list of the most pressing bugs and update it continually. Reward those who fix any of the top ten. Financial rewards plus recognition in house are great incentives for most people. Post the top ten list in the SLBlog with info on progress being made.

It appears that efforts are being made already to respond to some of the issues. Continue the good work on these issues and increase the efforts.

Start getting 24/7 telephone support for billing problems. Outsource if necessary.

Bring back live help. Use live help as a triage tool. Let the live help people solve most of the newbie questions [e.g. I bought a thing and now I'm wearing the box]. Forward the more complex technical problems to an in house technical support staff.

Slow down the headlong rush to new features. I would suggest only introducing new features AFTER several of the top ten bugs have been fixed. Example: "Hey SLers, we just fixed the TP and hair and shoes stuck up the fanny problems, now we're going with sound!!! Woo hoo!! "

Start EFFECTIVE communication with residents!!! This is NOT fertilizer filled corporate PR releases. It is also not canned e-mails directing us to web links which do not solve the problem at hand. Try to avoid canned messages that basically say "we're working on it and we apologize for any inconvenience." This tends to enrage people, me included.

Get advice. there are some awfully smart people in the SL community. I am not one of them but I AM smart enough to know others are smart. Read this forum and if a problem seems unfixable, see if any forum writers have already posted a proposed fix. Also, if any of the regular forum posters seem to have a good handle on the general area that involves the problem, ask them for advice. I have found generally it is only stupid people who are afraid to admit they don't know everything. the smart ones realize their limitations and are not shy about asking for advice from anyone. Remember too, the stupidest person in the universe knows SOMETHING you don't know.

Start working on what I call the "social issues" after the fixes for the "technical issues" are complete or well underway. Ask for input on the social issues as well.

Will the above sugestions solve all of the problems? Noooo, unfortuantely not. Its a start though. Think of it as the first bite of the elephant.

Okay Lindens, go get 'em. I'm still rooting for you!!!

I'd like to talk about two things, promises, and testing.

Have you heard the phrase "under promise and over deliver"? May I gently suggest that you keep it in mind when you schedule and update or otherwise predict what's going to happen?

Take today as an example. Had you predicted downtime from 9 to 12 or even 9 to 11:30, you'd have exceeded our expectations. As it is, it was a bit disappointing. Same facts, different customer satisfaction.

Also, the downtime was supposed to fix group IMs. They aren't fixed. This seems like a waste of downtime to me. Again, reduced satisfaction.

Second, the programmers in my company have started using an approach they say is part of "Agile Software Development", called Test-Driven Development, where they actually write tests for the software before they write the code. This has reduced our company's defect list to less than one tenth of what it used to be.

Now I'm sure the problems of SL are much more difficult than in my company, but I've got to wonder whether some improved techniques might not help.

Regards,

Janet

When are vehicles going to work?

Ihaven't the faintest idea about vehicles. I have none. Just a suggestion though? Why don't we concentrate on getting then to fix the MAJOR bugs which were addressed in the Open Letter first?

With regard to the UK Help Line, you must ring it from a land line. It won't work from a mobile, and I'm not sure about Skype. I'll check on that. In the meantime, try ringing 0080072200010 from your land line. I just did, and it worked fine for me.

As an aviation enthusiast and there are many of us in SL, will the Lindens enforce a strict limit on the annoying red no entry barriers on land. These barriers offer no warning that you will be ejected let alone offer a reasonable period of time to go round, they just throw you out of the vehicle on contact. Many of these barriers are a large height above a building, and many more are on empty derelict unused land. The height ruling should be no more than 10 metres above the highest visible structure connected to the gound on the land parcel. That way, a helicopter could fly high enough visibly to avoid the area rather than being thrown out of the vehicle onto no build land so you can't even restart a flight. It spoils enjoyment for many people in SL.

Janet: Very well articulated, and a good concept!
Very good thread, folks!

I think they have a lot on their "to do" list. I'm personally not a vehucle [ground or air] enthusiast. I do realize some of those issues are important to others. I would like to see LL fix the problems mentioned in the OL before moving on to other issues, even the ones which are important to me. After all, if SL keeps working [or not working] the way it has been, vehicles don't really work either, right?

Vehicles are important because they are a combined policy/technical snafu. They should rate somewhere in the "inventory loss"-level of seriousness, because the main problem is that, just innocently flying around ANYwhere, you are likely to get ejected from your vehicle, and have your vehicle do anything from being thrown several sims away (even into the ground where you will never find it, and where it immediately starts causing massive sim lag due to physics collisions), to returned, to completely deleted. That's small comfort when the vehicle is a no-copy model which costs several thousands of Lindens to purchase each.

Also, let's not try to belittle anyone's issues because LL "has a lot on their plate". No one deserves less attention just from our say-so; let LL determine the seriousness of the issue from the feedback. mmkay?

Regarding this blog post: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/03/28/1140-known-issues-drivers-vbo-ati-x300x600-notebooks-and-other-woes/#comments

I had hopes that those of us who took the time to post our system specs would at least receive a response and see this to a happy ending.

However, this isn't the case, instead it's ended worse.

Prior to 1.14.0 I had no issues in Second Life. In fact, I purchased an Island, have invested my USD in this, and generally my only compaint has been lag.

1.14.0 was then released. All of a sudden, my graphics driver is to blame. Ok, update graphics driver. Done. Hrm. Nope, not working. Ok I'll go back to 1.13.2 since 1.14.0 was optional. Woo hoo! Life is good again.

I had hopes that LL would listen to all of those in that thread who had issues. I was wrong.

1.15.0 was released, not as optional, thus my SL has been taken away.

I am able to login. After 5-10 attempts, crashing immeditately at login, getting a blue screen error, having to reboot, and attempt again. Why do I bother? Because I own an island, have vendors who expect me to be available when issues arise, money to be distributed and relationships to foster. I don't have a choice but sit for 45 min and keep trying.

Once in world, I'm unable to teleport anywhere. I can barely fly across my Island without crashing. It's completely unstable.

I sent support an email, to which I was responded to with a generic response which was essentially the same thing as what was listed in the blog. I responded asking for assistance again, never to have my email responded to.

My questions:

1. Why is it inconsistent? Why can I login and stay logged in for hours (minus the abilitiy to teleport or do anything other than hang out) after 5-10 attempts.

2. Will SL ever support other graphic cards, or should I consider selling my Island and counting my losses. (my laptop is less than a year old, with an embedded graphics card so updating my graphics card is not an option, purchasing another laptop is not an option, spending more money for this to work is not an option).

3. Is it possible to use an older version if you have issues, even though these updates are mandatory. Is it possible to make older versions available?



edited to add: It's not acceptable to me to be told to update my drivers or graphics cards, when, prior to this release, I had no issues at all. I have updated everything, I have spent many hours reading and trying to get this fixed. I know SL works on my system, as I had no problems before.

I am not belittling anyone's issues. If you make the inference that I am doing so, you are sadly mistaken. All I am trying to say is that it was the OL that got thir attention and those issues should perhaps be addressed first and other issues, including the vehicle issue, should be solved too as time and resources permit. I am not a vehicle user, so my ignorance is probably showing, but what earthly good IS a vehicle if you can't sign on to the grid or if you do, you can't move?

I agree, people who buy or create vehicles should be able to use them. You can save the condescending and sarcastic "mmkay?" please.

It is what I got from your words. Don't like it? Use different words.



..and what I am trying to say is that it IS part of the issues addressed in the Open Letter, because it is also an inventory loss issue. It is only different in HOW it is lost.



No one, no, not even myself, claimed otherwise. However, the Open Letter is not simply covering "just about signing on and moving once logged in". It also covers things like INVENTORY LOSS.



I'm sorry, it was no more meant to be condescending and sarcastic than you meant to be belittling. OK?

This thread is Town Hall Topics - Present & Future. i.e. issues that should be raised. Let's not make it an open discussion of the post you made and I don't agree with your view or you should have made a point better. It is not the meaning of this thread. I know I am breaking my own preaching here by posting a reply to others, but I am pleading everyone to get back on track and post topics, not criticisms of others posts...