Concerned about Windlight

The latest test viewer (1.19.1) is likely to be the final test before Windlight is released as the main viewer for everyone to use.

From the blog post:
"Barring any showstoppers, we expect this to be the final RC in the 1.19.1 viewer series."

Compared to the current viewer I'm using (1.19.0.5) the graphics with the latest test viewer are rubbish. Unless I have everything in graphics prefs set to 'mid' I can barely move the lag is so bad. Even if I customize the settings so my draw distance and particle count are right down I still can't turn anything else up without walking like I've drunk a bottle of vodka.

Okay, so with the prefs set to max Windlight looks a billion times better than the current viewer and is absolutely beautiful. But in order to actually be able to do anything (i.e. move) I have to turn the prefs down so much Windlight looks WORSE than the current viewer for me.

I'm running a mac which is well above the recommended system requirements on LL's webpage and is only a year old.

Hardcore gamers custom-build PCs so that they can run games at full pelt. Imho, although some of the residents of SL fall into this category, many don't. It feels to me that LL are about to release a graphics upgrade that 'prices' most people out of the game.

If you haven't tried the test viewer I highly recommend you do before it goes live.

I expect it won't be a mandatory new viewer when it's released as the main one. However at some point it will become mandatory when later releases include, for example, a security fix.

Sorry if I sound all ranty but this has me pretty worried. For me what SL looks like is a big deal and the visual aspect means a lot. Plus I really can't afford to get a new computer for at least two years.

I tried to find/raise this as a Jira (which is the recommended way to give feedback on the latest test viewer) but I have no idea what I'm doing. Does anyone know if this issue is already on the Jira and if not can anyone give me some advice on how to raise it?

I had the same experience with Windlight. It looks fabulous, but I can't do anything except get the oil changed on my car, and maybe my hair done, while I wait to rez. Setting the sliders to an acceptable level gives me a worse look than the Nicholaz BE V viewer I am using now. I knew my video card is out of date going in so I'm not surprised, but I have no intention of uprgrading it and the power supply anytime soon. I plan on this machine lasting at least another year or two. So I'll stay with what I have as long as I can and wave bye bye if SL has to move forward without me.

But as you say, it looks much better with the settings turned up. Should we be targetting SL at the same hardware that was mid-range 5 years ago? Or should it move forward? One of the main criticisms of SL is the poor graphics and Windlight is a major step forward in that regard.

My newer computer is only 6 months old,and runs windlight like crap. I am afraid if it ever becomes mandatory to play SL,I will be leaving. There is no way I am buying another computer just for SL.I already own two.

Actually stability is the main concern of most residents. Hopefully the havoc upgrade will solve that.

LL needs to target hardware that the average person has if they want to keep large numbers of customers world wide. Even very new mid level rigs choke on wind light, while my older custom built baby runs it at acceptable levels. Of course it was built to be a gaming rig.

Seems that your choice is to have decent graphics OR to actually be able to USE SL fluently. Can't have both unless you have a top of the line machine.

I wish there were a way to specify better WHICH textures to emphasize.
Everyone seems to be hysterically happy how pretty water and skies are with Windlight but that's not why I'm at SL. I'd much rather have things load quickly and have avatars look their best which just isn't the case with Windlight. I know there are all sorts of tweaks, but it's not enough.
Performance needs to come before pretty sunsets, IMHO.

Hmmm,

I'm using the latest RC viewer with windlight and my settings are kept at mid range.....and I have not yet had any issues with it. We don't have an uber souped up gaming computer.... we have a Dell refurbished xps410 with lots of memory and an nvidia gforce7600 graphics card which I update drivers regularly. We also have cable high speed internet and from what I've learned over the past 13 months being in SL......internet speed is gonna have a huge impact on how the game behaves.

Honestly, I think SL is a break through venue and what they've done already is just incredible. And like any new game technology....it simply is not going to be accessable to everyone. Even the best PC games out there cannot be played by everyone. Thems the breaks....the people that can, do.(SL and every other gaming company out there count on this fact) My fiance is a huge gamer (barring SL, he has no interest in it) and his laptop simply wont support the newer games coming down the pike. Oh well....eventually he'll get a new computer, because it's a priority for him (when he's home, he's over seas now)

Game graphics is one of the more looming issues for any game, be ita cyber community like SL or a structured 'game' like FEAR or Crysis....both of which we have and are soooo cool......but we would not be able to play them if my fiance didn't buy me this pc for christmas 06. Game graphics are constantly going to be tweeked because the demand over all is for an increasingly immersed, real world experience......and if people want it....then they will keep up with the technology to use it....the market counts on it, delivers what the vast majority screams for....and they eat it up.

The glitch with SL..... is that it's not just a gamer geek thing....it reaches to such a broad market who enjoy it for any number of reasons, and so far it has been accessable to just about anyone. That is their dilemma..... keep up with graphics demands.....keep everybody happy. We live in such a rapidly transitioning technological age.....there's just no way everyone is gonna be able to keep up...but it's going to advance with or without em.

SL with windlight is the only program that gives me problems on my laptop. I can run Sims2 with lightening speed,WOW and a multitude of other high end graphic games. I have a cable connection and never had any problems running anything BUT SL/WL on this machine. I just don't get it.

Windlight doesn't affect the loading time at all, it's purely a client-side set of improvements. And I find avatars look fine in windlight, if they just turn those ridiculous facelights off.

What model of Mac are you using, and what video card does it have?

What version of the Mac OS are you running, and are you certain you have the latest video drivers?

SL does run OK with Windlight on most of the newer Macs. But some models of Macs have surprisingly poor video cards. And some have video cards that don't operate properly with the video ram settings maxed while in SL.

One thing that helps a lot of Mac users is to go into your SL Prefs and reduce the amount of VRAM that SL is trying to use to 1/2 what is actually on the card. This especially helps if SL seems to freeze up after just a few minutes of play.

And though I love Mac myself, I have to say that depending on your hardware, it may be worth it for you to install Bootcamp and a copy of Windows XP on your Mac, and try running SL under Win XP. Some Mac users have found the Windows-based version of SL runs better on their Mac than the native Mac OS version does.

I can't say what the current graphics compare to, I don't play any other games. They always looked OK to me. I'm not against moving forward. But don't you want to take as many people with you as you can, or do SL want to be for the Bleeding Edge crowd only? What is the average computer setup nowadays, and will the updates work for most of those setups? I'm not technically hip enough to answer that. I'm not complaining, like I said I'll hang in as long as I can and see what happens.

I'm not referring to complaints from regular users of SL - I'm referring to the people who hear the hype, download SL and try it, and are horrified at how bad the graphics look compared to other games (I know, SL isn't a game, but the rendering engine has a lot of similarities to one).

As games get better and better looking, and the average computer gets more and more powerful, SL was looking increasingly outdated, and this was definitely something LL needed to address if they wanted SL to continue to appeal to new people.

Oh, and although the environment rendering has seen improvements from the Windlight stuff, don't forget that with WL being released there are several very talented rendering developers (essentially, the staff of the Windlight company that got bought by LL) who will be looking for new things in SL to work on. There are murmurings about improving trees & foliage (either using the Speedtree license that LL have had but not used for a while, or something else), there were also mentions of a materials system that will improve the look of regular prims.

Sounds like you lot have bugs you should be reporting, not complaining. It runs fine for me, even run it at Mid on my 32MB ATI Graphics chip on my laptop, despit the fact that its totally underpowered and not supported.

REPORT! REPORT! REPORT! THOSE BUGS! THEY WILL NOT NOT GET FIXED OTHERWISE!!!!!!!!

Pretty sure nobody is gonna like this, but nonetheless, FWIW: I've found that even on some extraordinarily crappy old computers, WindLight runs pretty well at very nearly "ultra" settings, as long as I crank the draw distance down slightly from that of the non-WindLight client. YMMV, but... to me, I'm happy enough seeing nearby stuff look pretty and far-off stuff not at all. (One reason YMMV is that the machines in question are *so* crappy that no client has ever run "smoothly" on them; they've always had single-digit frame rates, which is just what I expect of SL on them. Not particularly high expectations, but, hey, it's still SL to me.)

I'd have to disagree how much "better" Wind-light looks.

Its a sharp improvement for some things only.

With the new avatar lighting "better" definitely would be the word I'd use when referring to Avatars.

The sky and water are really pretty though.

I would have preferred slight improvements across the board to substantial improvements in only some areas.

Is there some kind of tutorial somewhere on how to tweak graphic settings for SL? I'd like to play with the settings a bit and try to get WL to run at an acceptable speed,but some of the settings I am afraid to touch because I have no idea what they are.

It's good that the water is pretty, as last I checked one is still on an "island" when rendering landscape at any distance. The donut sky seems to be gone now, however. good news to those of us who live in the sky.

Let me remind that the client source code is fully available, if one or more peoples desire to maintain a client for low end computers, or even for cellphones, they are free to do it.

However, computer technology evolve every days and lets face it, the first impression new residents get from SL start by graphism.

Even with windlight SL is far behind any other 3D engine when it comes to capabilities, and i hope that "someday" SL will be able to support most of the openGL features. More possibilities to make detailed surfaces & shaders means less need for overly complex objects, and in the end a better use of today's 3D hardware rather than being so CPU reliant.

SO if you have the tech background, you can actually make your own client, and if you don't it's never too late to learn.

I'm talking about mid/high range spec machines purchased 1 to 2 years ago.



My point exactly. If LL are going to grow as a business I believe they need to broaden their appeal rather than narrow their customer base. If a university decide they want to branch out into SL and they log in on a standard uni PC what are they gonna see? Low/Mid pref Windlight which imho doesn't look as good as the current graphics.



Thanks for your suggestions Kira. When I purchased my mac I deliberately upgraded the graphics card and for the last year SL has run beautifully. I'll check the driver but I believe it's up to date. Haven't had a problem with freeze ups, it's jerky movement mainly.



This is exactly why I posted! I'm trying to report this as Jira feedback but no one has answered my question. This isn't a support ticket bug issue, this is a performance issue with a test viewer. Feedback like this needs to be heard by LL (as well as the positive response) so they can make the right decisions moving forward.

I'm not against Windlight at all, I think improved graphics are a great thing. But not at a significant loss of performance for a large number of residents.

Can anyone help with the Jira questions?

The Graphics are behind the times no disputing that, another few years without upgrade and we would look like Virtual Worlds "run on anything" Commodore64 graphics, then again it has less lag than us too. Without an upgrade sales will die too, our physics engine and scripting are woeful driving away gamers who are spending customers, in favour of keeping the world stable for non spending people who just text chat & camp.
Somewhere along the line the issue of reloading the same brickwall txtures everytday we login has to be fixed, that's what lags us. Bring in a standard SL texture set and prim collection, for floors and wall so we only download custom textures or objects like doors that aren't locked. Instead of paying $15 per month to play we pay for downloading.

I think most folks with powerful hardware don't really like Second Life and are off playing games like Crysis. Second Life seems to appeal to bored housewives, role players and people that aren't normally interested in video games and fancy graphics. These types will often play Second Life on their laptops running Windows 95.

I suppose the question is whether people would upgrade if SL were to no longer run on their machines.

Maybe time for a poll!


"Calling all old wrinkly people. Are you willing to upgrade?"

Well, I'm not wrinkly yet, but I just bought mine less than a year ago, so no.

The new viewer is going to piss a lot of people off. I can't use decent graphics on the new viewer, my machine isn't 5 years old. If this were a game this would be reasonable, but it's not a game so excluding potential customers is a complete pile of pants.

They used to advertise Second Life as specifically *NOT* needing a very sophisticated computer to run. Compared to some online games.

Not lists of specs, but actual copy describing that it was easy to run as long as you had a high speed connection.

It was one of their bullet points of selling features, along with such things as no large download and no required monthly fee ..

LL Does not read here though.