Second Life: Possible Leave

Hello all, I have researched Second Life for a little over a month and find that its nearly empty and yes I've bought land for a small business and yes I have made sales but nothing made covers the expenses of owning land. The tier fees is one of the biggest barrier, simply too high, alot higher than standard business websites that only cost me a little less than $100. per year for GBs of storage.

The technolgy is quite cool but still lacks ease of use for mainstream. However, as a builder and artist I find that most people here in SL are also artists and builders learning the tech. Its also exciting to see how Windligtht brings in more realism. No doubt about it, its coool.

I also have managed projects in developing for other 3D platforms such as UnrealEngine and HL2 Source and when looking at my options as a 3d builder I find the other platforms alot alot more affordable than developing in SL....

As an 3d artsit, what are your thoughts?

Hi Gusher, and welcome.

I'm only going to address one aspect of your post, that about SL being empty.

When I first got here, I thought the same thing. I spent the first few weeks wandering around, bored out of my mind. Wondering whether or not to stick around. Couldn't figure out what the big deal was.

I stuck it out, found this forum. Started to make friends, get away from the newbie areas. The more people I met that had been here for longer lengths of time, the less "empty" SL became.

Perhaps, you need to start expanding your network of friends and you might find this world has a lot more to offer than it currently appears.

My mom used to say "seek and ye shall find". Maybe that's how businss will come to you?

Just my take on it, having been in the same situation. 5 cents please

What did you do for unreal, I love that game....

Hi. Welcome to SL. If you've made some sales already and you're only here a month, sounds like you're off to a good start. Most people say it can take quite a while to build sales up to a good level.

As for empty, there are around 40,000 avatars in SL concurrently at any given time, somewhat more than the population of Burlington VT (that state's biggest town, which is why I pick on it), and at peak times can hit 55,000. What makes it seem empty is that works out to something less than 4 avatars per sim. So, if a club has 40 avatars in it (busy but not unusual for a busy place), it would take 9 or so completely empty sims elsewhere to balance it.

Lots of people hit an inflection point at about a month in SL - which puts you right on schedule. The initial novelty has worn off, you've explored the place a bit and learned how to function in it - so now what? This is where people either find value and purpose in SL or decide to move on. It does not provide a programmed sequence of goals and challenges to carry you along like online games generally do. It's an existential place - what purpose will YOU create for it from yourself? If you create one, you'll settle in If you don't you'll move on.

I'd suggest stick with it - the possibilities are endless. Search for groups and places supporting interests of yours, whatever they are. Make some friends. Sounds like you've explored, but trust me, in a month you've only scratched the surface. Most of all, to use the cliche, think outside the box: If you are a builder and artist, you will find purpose here.

As for cost, think about ways to hold down expenses: that is the other side of the business coin; first side is how to get the revenues, second side is how to keep them. You might surprise yourself in that area.

Probably more to the point: This is the bleeding edge of the 3D virtual platform concept. Whether it succeeds or fails, what happens here will affect the future of the Internet. It ain't waiting for Godot.

Elora Lunasea@ Thanks for your feedback on this....sounds like your saying to me I have no friends, but frankily the list just gets bigger by the week and all of them feel the same way.



Since 1999, I have been using UnrealEngine and HL2 for 3d development and we also entered the "Make Something Unreal" Contest which brought in cash and prizes. All we had to spend on was the game itself, it comes with not just tools but the resources needed to create realistic world where players can not just play but also chat....the webhosting was free provided by a Gaming Network. As you can see, as a 3d artist and developer seems that SL is not the way to go, especially on how expensive it is to be able to own land to sell artwork and though I've sold it just pennies. I don't even know what kind of chages wouold suffice to keep 3d developers in SL.....

Meantime, I may just abandon owned land to avoid those high tier fees. Paying for empty SIMS is not feasible for me.

Sell them off atleast you will be able to recoup some cash and ya I know the feeling the Sl has become a ghost town

A month isn't really enough time to establish a business - word of mouth is often the best way to get sales, and word doesn't travel too far in just a month. Also, you own one or more sims? Although it's tempting to buy a lot of land and go all out right away, it's much more practical to start with a smaller amount of land to establish a business - that way the tier doesn't become so overwhelming at first. You could try renting out some space to other small business owners if you want to keep the land and cover the costs - perhaps if you get a small group of businesses on your site, you can get some cross traffic going.

Come back in, the water's lovely!

I have to agree with this post. I understand that alot of people come into SL knowing they have alot of talent and that is great, but it is still best to start small and build up to something bigger, otherwise you really risk losing money to tier fees and getting burned out before you see your full potential. I hope you stick around. These things just don't happen overnight in SL, but that doesn't mean you don't have the talent to make alot of money here...so maybe tier down and stay and see what happens then

Every time they release new continents SL goes silent.

It won't stay that way. Ebb and flow.

Meanwhile, it's the interpersonal relationships, building, live music etc that keeps me here. I know I can't leave, I have just accepted that it is so.

***edit*** PS ... the above point is VERY true about burning out fast. Don't expect people to coo over your work ... there are a LOT of extremely talented people. One more is always more than welcome - if only each valuable addition wasn't accompanied by two thousand asshats

Your World. Your Imagination.

I suppose you could imagine that you are making lots of money!

On a serious note, you could be a victim of your environment. If you seek the same kind of people, you will likely get the same answer.

Thirded. It takes time to establish a successful business in SL. Also, bear in mind that successful marketing probably plays a bigger role in establishing a profitable business than the quality of creations - there are so many wonderful creations in SL that are, unfortunately, not very successful simply because the marketing is poor or non-existent. Business won't come to you, you have to go out and search for it!

I hope you decide to stay Gusher.

Well, I looked at your profile and found your link for your onrez portfolio...and the link doesn't work. That could be one of the problems.

When I went to onrez and manually searched you, I found some stuff that looks nice...but is a bit higher priced than other, similar items. That could be one of the problems - even in SL, people look for a bargain.

I've been in business for 3 months...I have good weeks and bad weeks. You just need to stick it out.

As others have said - don't abandon the land. In fact, feel free to contact me in world as I may be looking for what you're about to throw away

I've been here right at two months now, and as you, have been looking into the possibilities of doing commerce in SL. so far, I do not foresee making a killing in here, as you said, mere pennies. I have spent much, much more than I have earned in SL. I see SL as a 'for entertainment purposes only' SIM. Unless you count the value of making friends, and interacting with them, SL could seem as a complete waste of time...from a commercial perspective that is. There are two sides to this SIM... the commercial side, and the entertainment with friends’ side. I suppose at this point in time, I have become too preoccupied with making new friends, and establishing alliances. I am in no hurry to dive blindly into a business venture before I have researched all my options.
I admit it would be an undertaking on the part of LL to re-make or transfer everything in here to a better and more stable game engine, so much would either be lost or changed in drastic & subtle ways. I am sure there are by far much better game engines out there. But now that I am hooked, I guess I will stay, because I have found something of value that far outweighs the commercial value. There are some things that money can't buy, if you know what I mean.

I honestly believe that the days of coming to Second Life and doing extremely well commercially, have passed.

In the early days, yes, I can see how land developers became millionaires, clothing designers didn't have the massive amounts of competition there is now, etc.

Sadly, I believe I've missed the window of opportunity, so I have to be content with making those pennies, and doing my best to make them add up so that I at least cover my expenses

Unreal is not cheaper for commercial projects. The license costs a very hefty fee.

But for mucking around, its free.

I agree with you, SL is not inexpensive enough to be really useable as a 3d art platform yet. The prices have to come down a bit more.

I disagree personally. You can use a sandbox to make sculptures 100% free if you like. You could offer to build a custom design for someone, again 100% free to you (Maybe even get paid), you could find a Sim owner willing to let you do your thing for a month or so for essentially free (Yes it is possible. Enough empty sims out there. Maybe offer a small fee or something..but some are just plain nice)

SL for art is very affordable. One of the most affordable out there. SL as a business is not, at least not getting started. In the beginning you'll lose more than you make but if you're good at what you do, you'll end up making it back hundredfold.

If you are looking to do large simulation - like these - http://www.capware.it/ - you will have to agree that using a game engine to build your idea first is much cheaper than trying to do it in SL.

Small work is quite affordable (the occasional sculpture, etc), but as soon as you are looking to create a really immersive experience, SL fails due to expense. Only the truly rich or with funding can anyone afford 30+ contiguous sims to create an accurately scaled fully immersive environment. Land barony doesn't quite cut it, people want to do their own thing with the land they rent, which doesn't work for simulation.

In my opinion presonally something on that scale is no longer just art but part of a business providing a service - even if for free. The service is the immersion into that experience. Just my personal opinion. Also one of my opinions is that ease costs more. I've worked very little with game engines and such, but I do believe them to be much harder to use than building in SL.

Depends. The argument is cost, not how hard the tools are. For a pro, difficulty of the software is not an issue.

It is still art. Just because they are professional 3d artists doesn't make it any less art. Or is your argument that only amateurs making do with SL primitives can make 3d art?

Well, that doesn't quite make sense

There are projects being done on that scale in SL as well, but the only people who can afford it are institutions. Such as Virtual Rome, by the University of Virginia. It has funding and a team behind it - is it somehow less art? It's essentially no different than what Capware has done with a game engine. Anyone who wants, can do what Capware did in a game engine, doing simple game mods. It's actually not that hard to mod for game engines, for anyone with stock 3d art skills. Machinima.com is a good example of the variety of engines people use to make such environments.

The difference with SL is you can offer it up to more visitors. I don't know if that will change at some point in the future for the game engines, we'll see I guess.

My argument is it stops being 'just art' once it becomes a service. It can certainly be artistic but to call it 'art' with no other title or anything I don't agree with.. offering a service makes it a business, whether for profit or not.

Making a sculpture would be art. Making a museum of sculptures would be a service. I'm not saying by any means that it isn't beautiful nor artistic..just htat it becomes more than art.

Every 3d object is by definition a sculpture, so all 3d models are art.

making an immersive 3d environment is not necessarily a service, in fact, your argument would support that making these environments in SL would be a service, and not art, but making them in a 3d engine would be art, as these mods are generally "stand alone" - the only difference is that you get to control where your camera goes and experience being *within* the artistic scene, rather than being locked to the point of view the artist set out for you. Which is the case for 2d art, and 3d rendered art.

Game engine worlds are typically not easy to "visit" like in SL, so I don't get your argument. They become more of a simulation, because they lack the avatars we have. (limits of the software) They become the 3d immersive and interactive equivalent of painting buildings and scenery, which is most certainly art.

How does it figure that making an immersive environment in my 3d program would be art when I render it in 2d, but not art when I place it in a game engine. Same geometry and all. Or if I sell it or make the same thing on commission, its somehow stops being art anymore? It doesn't happen for 2d artists painting the same scene, that's for sure. It doesn't happen with 3d artists rendering a scene to a still image. I sure do quibble with your definitions. You are basically saying, it has to stay still to be art.

It wouldn't be any more or less art in a 3d engine, unless only used in movies or stills. I'm sorry but I currently can't find words to define what I mean any better at the moment... truly.

I see it as art if it is visual, audial(Not the right word but oh well.. not even a word lol), touch, smell, etc. If it combines all or most of these it is more than art... I'm not necessarily saying it isn't art but art plus some, which then creates a service.

I know I'm in part contradicting myself but oh well. I view it as if it is 'just' art and nothing more then that is it. But if it is more as well then it is a service/business whatever, and therefore no longer follows the simple rules of 'just art'

You can expect something to be more difficult and expensive if its going to do more than just be art, and offer immersion into a new world or something similar.

A blender is a blender. But throw in a clock and it becomes more than a blender, though you could still call it a blender. And yes I know that was a random comparison.

so, a painting of a woman, looking at a clock on a table with a blender on the counter, is art. a 3d render of a woman, looking at a clock on a table with a blender on the counter, is art. But a 3d woman, looking at a clock on a table with a blender and you having an avatar in the scene watching her, able to change view yourself to view the woman more closely, or the clock, table or vendor, is not art.

Does not follow

Seems you're more hung up on the fact that you can sell it at some point. But that's the case for all three scenarios. The painting and rendering could be set up in an art gallery. For that matter, the art gallery could have the painting, the rendering, and the 3d computer simulation.

By your logic, the art gallery in the real world is not art - agreed. But all the things you are viewing in the art gallery are most certainly art - and you in the virtual world looking at the scene created by the artist - is not the gallery. It's still the art set up by the artist in the scene, for you to experience it more fully on your own volition That is a step to a new sort of artistic medium - yes. It is 3d interactive art. It is, however, still art.

I continuously say taht it could be non profit and make no difference.. its not the fact you can sell it I promise

And it can still be art if you can have an av changing the view and whatnot. You are not immersed into that scene, you are not taking part in it. Just as a movie is art, but a rollercoaster is an attraction, even if based off of that movie.

3d interactive art is art. But being immersed into it, being part of it changes it beyond art to a situation, an event, and therefore you could apply the label service loosely in most situations.

EDIT:: Of course, this is all my opinion.. not trying to change your mind if it seems like I am, just explaining my thinking ^_^