The dangers of a totally immersive online world?

I'm not talking about scams and such, I'm talking about mental immersion into a world such as Second Life.

I remember a few years back, reading an article about a kid (Teens I think) who committed suicide over his Everquest addiction.. I played Everquest and Everquest 2 for 8 years altogether, and can't understand that logic even now, though I was addicted to both, no doubt in my mind.

I am also aware how addicting SL is, at least for me, and its therapeutic, though unorthodox use as a stress reliever for many people. Some say it is unhealthy to use it as such, or at least to use it as an escape from their RL.. I'll let you think what you want on that particular subject.

What I'd like to know, is whether anyone believes that with a virtual world as immersive(Not a word I dont think...) as Second Life, how much does the risk of total addiction rise? If one kid killed himself because of his addiction to a world where he was so limited... what happens when that same mindset comes into a world where there are, essentially, no limits?

I know that I could never hurt myself, nor anyone else, due to my Second Life addiction. But how many people, do you think, could? How much of a danger does this ideal world (for many), provide?

EDIT:: I have reread this post and found that some might possibly consider it a bit emotionless regarding the loss of a life. I consider this a hugely horrible event, truly. I do not, however, inject emotions into things where I wish to learn something about opinions of others.. it usually leads to more drama, even in such cases.

ANYTHING can be dangerous to someone with an addictive personality if taken to extreme. Using SL as a temporary escape is fine, no different than any other hobby. It's why I'm here. it's no different than gardening, building models, needlework, etc. I log on because I want to, I log off because I want to. I never make a plan to log on, if I have the free time and the interest I do. Everyone has a different objective for SL, but it should always be kept in the proper perspective.

Of course, an addictive personality is just that, an addictive personality, but one who is not normally addicted to games and such, in my mind, would be at greater risk to being addicted to SL, because of all it offers. At the same time, there are so many layers of addiction.. at what point do we offer something too good for an addictive personality, at what point is it almost guaranteed that a problem will arise, someone will get hurt, and its because of all it offers?

That's a good point, but I guess them's the breaks. Personal responsibility has to come into play somewhere. You could counter with the idea that some people's RL's are so hopeless and empty, for a variety of reasons, that SL's immersiveness are a major part of keeping them going, and not existing as empty shells. Maybe this should be part of that Master's Program.

Classroom 141-B
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How to cope with the social ineptitude of being a nerd 101
How to cope with the social ineptitude of being a nerd 201
Imaginary friends, Are they real?



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But seriously...Now I' a bit worried that something similar will happen, or has happened already. Has anyone read or seen anything about a similar case involving Second Life? So many ramifications to one deed.

I think anyone who will commit suicide over such a thing is suicidal anyway, and the triggering event is immaterial. If not for SL, they would commit suicide because it's Tuesday, or because it's not Tuesday.

When its due to an addiction though, the only reason for the suicidal tendencies could be withdrawal (Though not 100%, I don't think).

When you introduce addictoin to the mix, the human psyche becomes considerably more unstable when dealing with the addictive substance or object. So while they may be depressed in general, if they have become too immersed in SL, and have become so addicted that they feel it is their only joy, and you take that away, they will snap.

If that makes sense

Second Life could contribute to one's suicide just as any real life experience could contribute. To say that Second Life isn't as real as any other experience is like saying that baseball is a game and thus not real.

Well, as dangerous practises go, it's probably less dangerous than automobile use, cigarette smoking, or eating too much butter and salt.

Second Life addiction death statistics: zero out of millions (save from natural causes).

Failure to use left turn signal before changing lanes: one bajillion horrific deaths

Listening to that AC/DC devil music: just a few (or none)

Supersizing your mega-burger with fries: a gajillion painful deaths

Cellular phone usage and operating machinery: too horrific to even contemplate

...

...I'm failing to see any sort of significant problem with the metaverse here.

I also read about that kid who killed himself. They blamed it on the game but who really knows why he did it. They chose to blame it on and on-line game. Maybe it was due to the game but I'm sure there were other factors involved.

Many have said this in the early years. specially with some people that can`t deal with people in real life. anti social anti goverment. Those with little of no repect for those that apply rules for the overall wealthfare of those playing games like Second Life. Nobody wants a poliece state, but we do need rules a standards to help safeguard those while within the game of SL.

Saying

These days there are groups on sl that continues to make alts and harrasse threaten. These people or ( person ) continue to do anti-social behavior actions. Why the do it leads many to believe there are hidden needs to hurt and cause problem because themselves in rl have been emotionally hurt or abused.

Personailty myself i enjoy sl for all its greatness. These days like many do I ignore and do my own thing on sl. Because my rl is much more complex and time consuming then it was earlier in my sl life. Dressing up as a alt and trying to start problems is childish, which shows a a emotional problem within these types of users on sl. If they have that much time to look for problems, maybe creating or designing objects would better suit their emotional outlets. Instead of trying to get attention to their anti social behavior activities....

Oki,
Back in the day, probably when you were very young, a youth by the name of (Adam? Someone correct me if I'm wrong) got so immersed into Dungeons and Dragons that he really BELIEVED it, disappeared for ages (some said he was wandering around in the underground tunnels of his university,) and ended up committing suicide over it. He was a super ultra brilliant chess whiz and had the whole world ahead of him. There was a huge hullaballoo and everyone said that D&D was the Devil's Game, etc etc la la la. D&D was decried as a horrible, addictive game that all reasonable parents should be aware of. For a long time, to play D&D was to play very quietly and very anonymously.

SL is exactly the same. It's an immersive game. You need an imagination to live here. Some people just can't turn off the imagination when it comes time to live Real Life. It happens with all games. Well maybe except Monopoly or Uno. At any rate, any game that requires a suspension of disbelief can pull in the fringe people who come to believe that the game is reality. I was going to make some pithy comment about RL vs SL realities and the enjoyment thereof, but honestly, anyone who comes to believe that they LIVE in SL vs RL needs a therapist.

Immersive online worlds are still in their infancy. There is no telling how much impact they can have on our psyches and our relationships. One thing rings true, in my experience: It's a powerful stimulus and needs to be treated as such.

People try to blame deaths on anything/one else but themselves because it's much easier.

Such as for instance if a child killed himself with an illegal weapon he brought, the parents would argue about how easy it is to obtain a weapon, instead of helping him in his depressed state or whatever. See what I'm sayin'?

(Kids with Illegal weapons is still bad, m'kay? But you can't blame it solely on that. The Everquest guy obviously had other mental issues that should have been taken care of but weren't)

The same things people said about the internet, before that about TV, the radio, cartoon books. Hundreds of years ago people said that about novels. Amd a thousand years ago? The addictive immersive virtual worlds back then were probably Greek theater plays - those horrid pieces of literature modern school kids have to study because they are part of the cultural heritage of the world.

Orxy I thought in D&D those kids actually played it out in real life. Don't know for sure, but I do remember them taking the game off the shelves in the stores.

on one hand it is incredibly immersive, on the other, it's like any other realm of imagination with both risks and benefits, both of which are untapped and some even unimagined.

because it's more geared towards a hobbyist, than towards exchange or advancement of knowledge it suffers under the glare of disapproval that all passtimes do... I think there is a large amount of untapped and unnoticed potential that gets shadowed because of it. awareness of other issues, creating a more globally aware community, and other side effects don't get much press but are still there. Sl's community has one of the major benifits of college education, exposure to diversity... surely that can't be such a horrible thing?

I think Raymond put it very well. Powerful forces are at work here - and we're the ones out front, experiencing them and trying to sort them out. I think - maybe - the issues of "addiction", and the propensity towards getting a bit lost in immersion are separate. Probably related. Obviously the attractions vary from one person to the next. But for all the hollering about the degree of addiction to gaming or online immersive environments - to what degree are the mechanisms explained? There are a LOT of people rather lost in Wow... why? I think Nick Yee is doing some of this over at his site:

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/

This is an interestingly timed thread for me personally - this very subject has been something that I've recently been trying to sort out for myself. In line with thinking of SL as a "therapeutic" environment - it may very well take "therapy", or at least some kind of guided, thoughtful processing to figure out the whys of our own involvements.

One person I know in-world with relevant experience and a genuine clinical perspective is Avalon Birke, the woman who runs slcounseling.org - I suspect there are others. She may be starting an open, free discussion forum with meetings - not sure. Worth asking - she's good people.

Something very powerful is at work here. I think the folks who are learning to regard our pastime with respect for the depth of the experience, and the possible hazards, are only to be thanked for their thoughtfulness.

The medical usage is also still quite untapped. Take a look at this awesome project:

http://www.bme.bio.keio.ac.jp/eng/01news/

Immersive worlds can be used to stimulte brain activity in paralyzed patients which helps in their recovery. This amazes me.

A totally paralyzed person would be able to communicate, meet with their loved ones, work, be creative, share experiences. It would be a full life for them, another chance. How can this be bad.

A little research can go a long way. I recommend to all of you who are concerned, this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies

Which among other things states that the "steam tunnel" D&D suicide was supposition reported as true; the fellow killed himself a year later for other reasons.

That page also relates that "The American Association of Suicidology, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and Health & Welfare (Canada) all concluded that there is no causal link between fantasy gaming and suicide.[...] Despite tenuous anecdotal evidence to the contrary, suicide and fantasy role-playing have not been shown to have any causal link.

Many footnotes, which you can pursue at your leisure.

For me, I do find SL a bit compelling, but not overwhelmingly so, at least compared to other "escape/recreation" activities. In SL, I don't have to shovel a foot of snow, pick up the house, go to the gym, or pay bills. I don't have to do those things when I go to Barrayar, Narnia, Bermuda, or the science museum, either.

I not sure about the rest of the world. But in my part of the world Japan. There is a big problem with Online volience spilling over as they say i to real life. So much that schools are informing parents to limit the number of hours children between the age of 8 to 15. Its become very bad out here. Manga which is a byproduct that has caused much of this soical anti behavior within this age group. But what is alarming is what happens later to this age group. The inverted personality because more acute and cases of voilence towards women by men how view them in a sexual/volient objects noticed. Women onthe other hand is said to experience highs of anti social feeling about men, and view men as threats and not possible marrige partners in their furture. Sad indeen but sooner this was occuring even before VR online games.

Just a little insight from this part of the world

Usagi

The largest danger to your health from games (SL included) is losing sleep.

Not getting enough sleep leads to being at higher risk from all sorts of things, lower immunity to viruses and bacteria, higher susceptibility to diabetes, heart disease, weight gain.

Suicide is way down the list. But the health risks are real.

The oldest examples of immersive virtual worlds are religions. OK, they use holy scriptures instead of electronics, and they are distinctly role-playing, but I think the psychological processes are the same as with world games. Religions have caused a lot of deaths, incuding suicides, over the years.

So SL is relatively safe. I sometimes have to tell my RL to log off as they spend too long online giving me things to do. One of the addictive factors with SL is the constant possibility of the 'next big thing' that will make the experience better, whether that's a new feature or a new personal accomplishment.

When an RL thinks they've spent too long in SL and decide to cut back a bit, a bell rings to remind them that the mere fact that they find themselves able to cut down means they must be liking it a bit less!

with risk of sounding like i need to be locked up, I AM ADDICTED TO SL.

my rl is a mess... yes, i could do things to make it better, but i suffer from depression.... it's not easy thinking positive thoughts about rl when its crap.

i have a terrible habit of putting SL before my RL...
sometimes i might not even leave the house for about 2 weeks....actually, the only time i leave the house usually is to go to the doctors for my meds..

yes, i would like a better rl.... sometimes i have even tried to leave sl... yet, i am still here...
i spend on average 16 - 20 hours a day on sl..... thats not jsut logged in and being afk... thats actually in front of my pc on sl...

i am ashamed to say that i was in hospital partly becasue of SL... well, not SL, but a situation i got into on SL... i wont go into details but for people that do have a crap rl, SL is very welcoming....
i wouldn't hurt myself over it now.... but some people are very emotional and cant help but get a bit 'carried away' with it all...

i have no idea why i am telling all this to people i dont know, but i jsut felt like i should say it for some reason... O.o

Very brave of you, Sara.

I have a great RL, and an awesome SL. Yes, I'd love aspects of my SL to spill into my RL, and parts of my RL do spill into SL. So far, no trouble differentiating the two.

I have seen some people though, who take SL farrrr too seriously.