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An army of Alts: What does it cost to create additional Basic accounts?

Crighton Johin
Frell Me Dead
Join date: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 555
10-12-2009 14:38
From: Jig Chippewa
What do people use them for? Please dont tell me it's sex or something like that and I've got it all wrong again.


Most clubs use an alt for accounting purposes to help keep funds separate. Between funds from my DJing, my club and my sim rentals, I have to otherwise I can't figure out where my money is going to. :D

I have me, an accounting alt for my club, an accounting alt for my sim, and another alt or three for fun. My alt also has an alt for when she needs some quiet time too. Yeah, my alt is more popular than me...that BITCH! :mad:

:p
Paulo Dielli
Symfurny Furniture
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 780
10-12-2009 15:36
From: Milla Janick
It seems like what really needs to be done is to fix the search. If they're going to use picks to influence the ranking, make it so a resident's picks only count if they spend a certain amount of time online a week. Or don't use profile picks to influence search at all.

Search is completely messed up, and I don't believe altering alt policies will fix it.

Exactly that is my point. I don't care if people create hundreds of Alts. As long as they aren't misused.

KNOWLEDGE BASE SAYS:
"Your first Basic account is free, and we won't charge you for a few alternate accounts. If we find that you've been creating an ARMY OF ALTS, we may charge a small fee of US$9.95 for the creation of each additional Basic account..."

Point 1) I consider creating 400 (and more) Alts an 'army'.

COMMUNITY STANDARDS SAYS:
"Alternate accounts are generally treated as separate from a Resident's principal account, but misuse of alternate accounts can and will result in disciplinary action on the principal account."

Point 2) I consider gaming search by the use of an army of alts 'misuse'.

Every shop owner in SL tries to influence search by the use of good keywords etcetera. There's nothing wrong with that. It is allowed, it's good business and it's good for the customer because he finds what he's searching for (as long as the keywords fit the shop's products). But gaming search with hundreds of Alts is wrong on two points: 1) Army of Alts 2) Misuse.

I tell you: if LL don't enforce their own rules, within a year the complete search will be dominated by people with Alt Armies. Everybody else in popular product categories can wave their shops goodbye because they simply won't be found anymore.

EDIT: I've just asked Linden Research in a Support Ticket about their official statement on this matter. My two AR's didn't have any effects yet. I wonder if they will answer the ticket. If so, i will post LL's statement here.
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-12-2009 15:52
I've been known to be critical of Linden Lab once or twice but there comes a point where you have to say, it's the users causing the problems. Armies of alts are completely out of order and everyone should know that.

I do wish LL would clamp down on offenders harder, but everything they do, the goalposts of gaming get moved. Maybe if less people bit when a new marketing opportunity arrived, then the less LL would have to deal with.
DanielRavenNest Noe
Registered User
Join date: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,076
10-12-2009 16:00
From: Bec Sadofsky
Not being silly here but how do you keep track of so many alts? That would confuse the heck out of me. Let alone how do you run so many at one time?


Excel Spreadsheet :-)

<--- has 56 total accounts, of which 13 premium. And before anyone yells at me, they were created for perfectly legitimate business purpose that has nothing to do with camping, bots, or search spamming. Once LL got off their ass and upgraded my main Lindex trading account to have a high enough limit (Currency Trader 3), I stopped using all the alts and really use 3 accounts regularly. The others I use once in a while for test purposes.

And I only log in one or at most two at a time using the regular viewer program.
Kira Welty
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 125
10-12-2009 16:04
How many users would be trying to game if LL's enforcement was stronger and clearly defined?

If your government became lax at enforcing crimes, and the amount of crimes went up in your neighborhood. Would you blame your neighbors or would you blame the lack of a deterrent to such crimes?
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-12-2009 16:12
From: Kira Welty
How many users would be trying to game if LL's enforcement was stronger and clearly defined?

If your government became lax at enforcing crimes, and the amount of crimes went up in your neighborhood. Would you blame your neighbors or would you blame the lack of a deterrent to such crimes?


Broken window effect Kira, it's a fair point. I was talking to my RL neighbour this morning about a rise in mindless vandalism in the area where he was told by the police his complaint wasn't a priority issue and he should stay inside whilst it's going on.

However, here, the majority are a bit more fair minded than mindless vandals, I like to believe that anyway.
Kira Welty
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 125
10-12-2009 16:22
Ouch... we had the same type of thing happen this past summer in our neighborhood, after our car was broken into and nothing stolen we received a very different response from our police department.

For me I believe the amount of mindless vandals and fair minded individuals is about the same as in RL as it is in SL. The difference really only being a certain level of technical ability is needed for SL. You don't need to know how to push a power button and click a few things to log on to RL.
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Darkness Anubis
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,628
10-12-2009 17:10
There are many ways to game picks not just this army of alts. What about those that pay for picks or those whose money trees will only work for newbs that have them in their picks?

Its all the same ... gaming the system.

No matter what LL does SOMEONE WILL game the system.

At this point the debate is really coming down to LL actually following through, investigating and policing in a fair and effective way and what form of gaming are we willing to accept.
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Congohelium Zessinthal
My own Manikin Mee
Join date: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 8
10-13-2009 11:19
I have less than 20 alts, and they're all for legitimate purposes. Like, funny names. Is that an army?
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
10-13-2009 11:36
That's barely a platoon of alts. More like a squad or patrol.
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Alternative Mode
You do not know me.
Join date: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 3
10-13-2009 11:48
THE Alt is not amused.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
10-13-2009 11:52
The ultimate alt, Alt Altman:

http://www.knoxroad.com/2009/10/10/mp3-digits-nonstop/#
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Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
10-13-2009 14:40
As long as LL allow free unverified accounts, the alt armies will continue, there's just no way of stopping people access to infinate anoymous accounts otherwise.

Unverified accounts should have limitations, or not be counted in search. I suggest they be able to buy but not sell items, as you should provide some verification to LL if you want to run a business, perhaps even pay a one time $10 fee for a selling licence.

Perhaps we should be able to link 4-9 alts to a premium account for verification.

I really can't see any legitamte need fo 50 alt acconts.
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Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
10-13-2009 14:46
From: Tegg Bode
I really can't see any legitamte need fo 50 alt acconts.

Cool names.

One needs at least 27 for lucky chair flipping.
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Paulo Dielli
Symfurny Furniture
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 780
10-15-2009 16:25
***UPDATE***

My two AR's didn't have any effect so far. Therefore I've submitted a Support Ticket with the basic question: is it allowed to create hundreds of alternative accounts for gaming Search?

Today the 'final solution' for this Support Ticket was provided by LL:

Thank you for giving us additional information related to your recent Second Life abuse report. We really appreciate your taking the time to give us important details--this should help us resolve any associated issues. We have included these notes in your account. We hope that this will be the last of any unpleasant encounters for you inworld. If you continue to experience problems with a Resident, please file a new inworld abuse report for each new incident and we will endeavor to investigate each report. (etcetera)

I have reopened the Support Ticket:

Dear Lindens,

You have not answered my question. I want to have your official statement: is it allowed to create hundreds of alternative accounts for gaming Search? Yes or no?

Best regards,
Paulo Dielli
Windsweptgold Wopat
Registered User
Join date: 24 May 2007
Posts: 1,003
10-15-2009 16:41
From: Atticus Lethecus
Firstly, I doubt very much that there's a single poster to these forums, including the OP, who doesn't have at least one "Alt" account

I am another who as never felt the need to create another account. I find i can do what ever i need to with this one and trust me she is enough of a hand full
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Paulo Dielli
Symfurny Furniture
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 780
10-15-2009 19:17
I have two Alts. One is a female avatar for testing couples cuddle animations. The second is a male avatar, for testing permissions only. That's it.
Paulo Dielli
Symfurny Furniture
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 780
10-16-2009 15:50
***UPDATE***

Oh boy, Lindens are dodging this. The latest reply from Lotte Linden to my last question:

Hello Paulo.
Thank you for your feedback. Please see for answers to your questions.

Kind regards,
Lotte


So I have replied AGAIN:

Dear Lotte (and Lindens),

Thank you for the link to

The text on that page (about traffic bots) says: "Why is this bad? First of all, it means that our Search rankings are NOT A TRUE REFLECTION of how many people found that location to be compelling. Instead it's often a measure of how many Bots were there which isn't very helpful. Secondly the BUYING OF TRAFFIC IS ON THE INCREASE AND BECOMING MORE ORGANISED. Often you can find them inside a box high above the land or crowded within a sealed room on the ground."

Although the Alt Armies, that I am talking about, are used to get Profile Picks instead of traffic, this use of Alts fits the highlighted (in capitals) text on the webpage that you are referring to. This again leads me to the conclusion, together with my forementioned arguments in my earlier ARs and Support Ticket, that Alt Armies for gaming Search are not allowed in SL.

So I want to ask you the same question again, because you still haven't given me a clear answer:

Is it allowed to create hundreds of alternative accounts for gaming Search? Yes or no?

Best regards,
Paulo Dielli
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
10-16-2009 15:50
You are not going to get a response.
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"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

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Paulo Dielli
Symfurny Furniture
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 780
10-16-2009 15:59
Maybe, but by pointing me to to the webpage they just gave me some extra ammunition. I'll go on until I get an answer.
LittleMe Jewell
...........
Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 11,319
10-16-2009 16:01
From: Paulo Dielli
I'll go on until I get an answer.
I tried that approach. They apparently have more staying power than me. I got too frustrated and gave up ever getting an answer to my questions.

Good luck with your attempts.
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LittleMe Jewell
...........
Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 11,319
10-16-2009 16:01
From: Argent Stonecutter
You are not going to get a response.
He'll likely get a response, but not an "answer" to the actual question/
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-Lil

Why do you sit there looking like an envelope without any address on it?
~Mark Twain~

Optimism is denial, so face the facts and move on.
♥♥♥
Lil's Yard Sale / Inventory Cleanout: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Triggerfish/52/27/22
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/littleme_jewell
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
10-16-2009 16:03
From: LittleMe Jewell
He'll likely get a response, but not an "answer" to the actual question/
Picky, picky, picky. OK, you got me. :)
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Paulo Dielli
Symfurny Furniture
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 780
10-16-2009 18:41
From: LittleMe Jewell
He'll likely get a response, but not an "answer" to the actual question/

True. I only need a yes or a no, it's pretty simple. I know very well that LL won't be eager to answer though, or won't give a definate answer at all. But I'll keep on asking this question. If they don't provide a very clear statement, then obviously anything is allowed and I'll be very well documented for any action I'll be forced to take, now and in the future. Other residents too, by the way.

I believe strongly in fair chances for everyone, also chances for my competitors. And there are a LOT of opportunities for every shop owner in SL who puts enough time, effort and quality in their creations and the way they can be found. But if those efforts become useless, because other people are illegally gaming search (against LL rules), then Linden Research can be held accountable. Eventually Alt Armies will dominate Search and therefore sales, other shops won't make money anymore and will leave SL, and that will be the end of SL.

It's in LL's own interest to answer my simple question.
mimi Luan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Feb 2006
Posts: 2
Traffic Bots Damage the Ecconomy ;-(
10-16-2009 23:49
@Paulo
unfortunately Paolo an army of alts already dominates search. The traffic botters are destroying SL by pushing their low quality products infront of the good creators

Often, good creators tend to be honest and not use them, as they are too busy creating.

Often poor quality creators tend to be lazy and and perhaps not so honest, and that's why they use traffic bots. They wouldn't be able to sell their rubbish products otherwise

It's a terrible shame for SL ;-(
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