Sharing IM's

Hi,
I know I read sharing IM's is not allowed on the TOS before, but now I can't find that part. Did I miss it? I did notice something about no guarantee of security in private transmissions. Does this mean it's no longer a violation to share IM's?

Pinky

It's in the Community Standards, to which the ToS refers, under "Disclosure."



http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php

It is not allowed between residents and considered in poor taste too. the privacy cavet is to CYLRA = Cover LindenReseareh Assets

AHA, there it is, I knew I saw that somewhere.

Thank you very much

Correction.

It is against the TOS to share IMs in world.

Email your IMs all you want.

Heck, i have even let someone have web access to my IM log folder before. LL can't stop that, and they cannot sanction you for it.

Your files. Your choice. Do what you will. Just do not send them while In World.

They can't stop it, Bri. And even though it's against CS, I see people sharing IM logs in world all the time.

Nevertheless, either one is a violation of privacy. Sure, they are your files. But those words were written by someone else, not you. You do not have the right, morally, to distribute their words without their permission. Legally, an argument could be made that it's a violation of copyright...although you'd have the devil of a time making that hold up in court.

(Which is not to say that I haven't done it myself from time to time. Nobody's a COMPLETE saint.)

I really do not think they can make any legal claim of ownership of log files created on my machine.

Sure notecards with a pasted IM chat in them kept on the SL servers via Inventory they have a say about. But once it hits my machine - i can send it to Kim Jong Il for all i want and LL cannot sanction me, and nor is it a violation of anything because their TOS/CS or whatever cannot extend to me outside the world of Second Life - unless they are somehow claiming copyright ownership of every word written and sent over their servers - which just is not possible or remotely legal.

I have been suspended in 2004 for sending around a notecard with someones IMs. But that was by Daniel Linden in defense of his fav pet. No idea how LL handles it now.

But i would love them to update the TOS/CS to say something like we cannot EVER even distribute our logs stored on our machines, because i love to see legal precedent set that shatter idiotic policies and rules made by companies and are in violation of the law.

ETA: For some reason i could not quote Lindal without getting that stupid server error.

Ahhh. The title of this post is misleading. I thought I was going to read some juicy hot-chat, maybe next time.

You misunderstand me slightly, Bri.

You're correct: Linden Lab has no rights to tell you what to do with the data on your machine. (Well, unless they assert such rights in the TOS and you agree to them on sign-up. But even then it would be impossible to enforce).

I was referring to the MORAL position of passing on things said to you in confidence to a third party. A different, and broader issue that whether LL has any say in the matter.

Well, the reason I posted this is due to certain people who put nonsense on their profile, such as, 'Speaking to me gives me permission to share your chat and IM's with anyone I please' and other such garbage. Where did people get this idea? Making up your own disclaimer doesn't just erase LL's rules, and I'd like to see anyone try to get away with it. Just because they put it on their profile doesn't make it so.

Sharing IMs and logs is scummy - inworld or out. Often resorted to by people who are point-scoring and/or who don't have the personal eloquence to encapsulate a thought and transmit the idea or essence of it in words of their own

From their perspective, it has nothing to do with copyright ownership. It's a contractual obligation. If I sign a non-disclosure agreement with a client, and I take notes at a meeting with them, I totally own the notes but I'm contractually prohibited from sharing them with anyone else.

In this case, if they want to ban you for sharing someone else's private IM, they have every right to do so. Their world, their rules. I don't believe they could do anything else beyond that, though.

Wow. Who thought that one up?

This would be a great question to bring up at the gteam office hours, if they still had them. I suspect they would laugh and say that such things in a profile is indeed nonsense.

so contracts described solely in one's profile are not lawfully enforceable, is that it?

/me expects that is true for ones that try to negate LL rules.

Theoretically, the contract-by-profile would be enforceable between residents, but not between a resident and Linden Lab. So a resident could be giving up liability rights against another resident, but that would not prevent Linden Lab from acting under it's own independant contractual rights and banning for a TOS violation.

Whether the profile disclaimer could create a binding contract is a separate issue altogether. To enforce it, the resident who put the disclaimer in her profile would have to prove that another resident read it before IMing. That's a pretty big proof problem.

Is that all it takes? Doesn't there have to be some sort of consideration or exchange of something of value?

Exactly.

Unless I say "yes, I have read that" it's not likely to get them anything, legally.

That was just the easiest way that came to mind of beating an attempted contract of adhesion. The "contract-by-profile" could very well be one of those great Contract 101 final exam questions.

Sounds kinkeh...

The position would be the same were you to walk the RL streets wearing a t-shirt that said "if you speak to me I claim the right to (re)publish everything you say" (er, except that a t-shirt is more obvious than something in profile.

Principled journalists/corresponds would ask for permission. Some people just aren't principled.

To me, if someone is saying 'Everything you say to me, I am going to go telling everyone else' - well, that just sounds really childish and tacky.

When I speak to someone in IMs, I like to assume it is with an element of privacy. Just as if we were in a room together in real life.

If I meet someone with that sort of thing on their profile, I will still be polite and friendly to them - as I am to everyone (I hope). But I am certainly not going to be as open to them as I would normally. I am not going to be trusting of them. They have instantly declared that they feel that all levels of conversation are deemed public and by doing so have eliminated any chances of my ever wanting to talk to them in anything other than a professional (merchant/customer) or casual aquaintance type way.

Friends do not go around telling other people every little thing that passed between them. If you knew that a friend was recording your conversations, and felt it would be ok to go broadcasting them whenever they liked, you would no doubt view the friendship in a different way, I think.

Sure, anyone CAN log IMs - nothing against the rules to do that. Sure, anyone CAN email logs, post them on external websites, etc. And I am sure there are times when people do feel they are justified in doing this (even though I still feel the fact that they can so easily be edited means that they are valueless as 'evidence' anyway).

But saying you are going to do - well, what does that say about you as a person?

I know what it says to me. Sorry.

hmm. Maybe I should change my profile to include: "By having communications with me in any manner with me you agree to never reveal the chat again in any manner, summary or otherwise. This notice supersedes any and all other notices/agreements/TOS that may conflict with it. This notice is enforceable on the planet Earth and minimal penalty is $1,000 US plus attorney fees and court costs. "

I couldn't find a way to say it but I think you did. I wish most people had a little better morals about peoples privacy. Its a little beyond tacky to giggle and admit that you log peoples convos to let others see them. I really wish LL would find a better way for people to age verify LOL.

Really there isn't anything stopping people from doing a lot of things in life. Some people have a sort of filter in them that just tells them when its wrong to do something. Seems some don't have the same type of filter or they just plain lack having one.

Obviously anyone can log any convo in game. I generally don't talk about anything thats overly private, or about other people, or anything else I should be embarassed about so it doesn't really matter to me. However, if I ever ran across someone wanting to be a friend who stated in their profile that they reserve the right to post my logs, I wouldn't befriend them. In fact I don't think I'd even respond in an IM to someone like that.

LOL I have to imagine in my mind a bunch of high schoolers giggling and sharing notes in class or something when I hear of people sharing IMs back and forth. I don't see the point really.