Sorry if this is request is in the wrong place, but here goes anyway.
After a few happy months of carefree exploring in SL, we've decided to take things to the next level and investigate the possibilities presented by the OpenSim initiative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opensimulator
We've allocated a couple of development servers running 2003 with .NET 2.0 and we're about to take our first crack at loading the latest source/ build before completely mucking it up by tinkering with the work of more talented developers than ourselves.
This is more of a R&D initiative for us, but obviously with longer term aspirations.
We're accessing all the main sources of info we can find already, but thought we'd see what experienced users of SL thought too.
Any input would be greatly appreciated..whether it be Techy, Geeky, Gossip, Impressions... whatever.
It can be Objective, Subjective.. what would interest you.. or even why you think it's all a big waste of time.
I'm being intentionally very non-specific and hazy at this point, because I'd rather not miss anything by being too prescriptive in the information I ask for.
I know it's a pain in the bum when people ask questions like this. Please feel free to ignore if you want, post whatever you think might be relevant here, or IM in world and I'll be very grateful.
If you don't know what OpenSim is and want to point that out too, it's fine.
Either way, thanks in advance.
Stephen
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OpenSim on Windows 2003 |
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Stephen Wisent
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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03-24-2008 21:43
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Phoenix Psaltery
Ninja Wizard
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,599
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03-24-2008 21:52
It's not a waste of time. It's the future, in an embryonic stage.
P2 _____________________
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-24-2008 23:03
You think SL's new CEO whoever that may be, will see things the same way and not start actions against the Rebel Bases?
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Stephen Wisent
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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03-25-2008 00:45
You think SL's new CEO whoever that may be, will see things the same way and not start actions against the Rebel Bases? Hi Rebecca, That's a good point, although the build we're using is open source, so it might be difficult for them to stuff everything back in the box. If we decide to go to market with anything we'll obviously look into the legal side of things. At the moment what we're doing is purely R&D however, we're just interested in where the applications are and what the potential is going into the medium term. The Server platform that we're using as the basis is distributed under a BSD licence. As far as my limited legal knowledge goes, the new CEO might not like it but I'm not sure there's much she could do at this point. I guess the opening up of the niche might be one reason for the new ToS already discussed on the board this morning. It will protect the Brand at least. We'll wait and see. From our point of view though it feels like all the signs are there for some sort of tipping point being reached.. from the availability of a cost effective entry into the market if nothing else. Finally we're totally committed to supporting the Open Source Movement and providing access to whatever we do.. ultimately to the extent of using it to help progress the OpenSim initiative. My opinion is that this sort of thing is good for SL and LL going forward, as long as they roll with the changing landscape. That's why this is all so interesting. |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-25-2008 01:57
Hi Rebecca, That's a good point, although the build we're using is open source, so it might be difficult for them to stuff everything back in the box. If we decide to go to market with anything we'll obviously look into the legal side of things. At the moment what we're doing is purely R&D however, we're just interested in where the applications are and what the potential is going into the medium term. The Server platform that we're using as the basis is distributed under a BSD licence. As far as my limited legal knowledge goes, the new CEO might not like it but I'm not sure there's much she could do at this point. I guess the opening up of the niche might be one reason for the new ToS already discussed on the board this morning. It will protect the Brand at least. We'll wait and see. From our point of view though it feels like all the signs are there for some sort of tipping point being reached.. from the availability of a cost effective entry into the market if nothing else. Finally we're totally committed to supporting the Open Source Movement and providing access to whatever we do.. ultimately to the extent of using it to help progress the OpenSim initiative. My opinion is that this sort of thing is good for SL and LL going forward, as long as they roll with the changing landscape. That's why this is all so interesting. I'm sceptical it will fly--assuming Ll doesn't just roll over and play dead. I think the oriignal libSL project had guidelines that some in their group didn't follow and I have a strong feeling a major case can be built up against all these grid projects. I doubt courts are going to buy the open source argument. If a potent CEO is heading LL, things might change drastically. |
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Stephen Wisent
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Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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03-25-2008 02:03
I'm sceptical it will fly--assuming Ll doesn't just roll over and play dead. I think the oriignal SLlib project had guidelines that some in their group didn't follow and I have a strong feeling a major case can be built up against all these grid projects. I doubt courts are going to buy the open source argument. If a potent CEO is heading LL, things might change drastically. Well it will fly to a degree, in that there are other OpenSim installations already in operation. IBM for one has recently implemented a 3D "Data Center" based on the server. We're guessing that anything we do, even if taken to market, will be very narrow focus. So in no way are we thinking of a competitor to SL. As with most of these areas though, I think "we'll wait and see" is the main strategy here. If nothing else, our servers aren't in the US or UK, so we have that on our side too. Reallythough, we're not even thinking about that at this stage. If we get the build loaded this weekend and actually get an avi to rez and walk about in there I'll be a happy man. Thanks for the feedback Rebecca. PS. Also I'm interested. You mention SLLib which I understand to be a simply an open source API allowing communication with the SL Grid. So I agree that in the case of SLlib, LL would be able to retain control of developer activities. In the OpenSim situation, it is a completely standalone Grid and needs no communication with SL to function. Ultimately I think what I envisage is that we would have a "multiverse" of grids, running a little like the internet is now, but allowing communication and interconnectivity between 3D Universes rather than 2D web sites. SL may yet be the defacto force in this network.. with whom little guys like us could connect. I'm thinking in the future OpenSim servers will be the equivalent of lets say APache webserver implementations. Have I understood the distinction between SLlib and OpenSim correctly? |
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Matthew Dowd
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Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
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03-25-2008 03:56
I'm sceptical it will fly--assuming Ll doesn't just roll over and play dead. I think the oriignal SLlib project had guidelines that some in their group didn't follow and I have a strong feeling a major case can be built up against all these grid projects. I doubt courts are going to buy the open source argument. If a potent CEO is heading LL, things might change drastically. It seems difficult to see how LL could put this genie back in the bottle: a) the OpenSim people have been very careful not to allow submissions from anyone involved in submitting patches to the SL viewer, so they have a defense of due diligence against any claim they are infringing the GPL license of the SL viewer code b) OpenSim is based on protocol documents that LL have either published or encouraged residents to publish on the wiki (the latter will means the copyright situation is unclear). c) LL have openly encouraged activities such as OpenSim, and there is pleny of evidence on the blog and in public e-mail lists supporting this - plus, of course, there is the AWG, a group designed to develop and promote interoperable grid protocols (LL's vision in the past has been a world of third party interoperable SL grids which LL providing the intergrid infrastructure) d) any legal case against OpenSim will cause a backlash in the open source community. Not only would that loose LL some of the additional input into the client, and some credability, it could also motivate those working on OpenSim to turn their attention to alternative virtual world technologies. OpenCroquet, for example, is in some ways technically superior to SL, but has some important missing features (and is really only usable by developers in its current form) and is hampered by not having reached critical mass in terms of a developer community and by not having any publically accessible worlds. They'd welcome a mass influx of ex-OpenSim developers and world hosters. e) the education sector can get quite religious about open source and open standards - if LL were to litigate against OpenSim, they risk a backlash from the education sector which still represents a substantial proportion of SL activity. Overall, I think that such an action would have a significant risk of failure and a significant risk of losing a lot of support and community with negative publicity. Matthew |
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Stephen Wisent
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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03-25-2008 04:26
Thanks for your very expert post Matthew.
Just what I was looking for really. Do you have any experience in Implementing/Developing OpenSim installations? |
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Atashi Yue
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 703
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03-25-2008 08:16
LL is involved in open source, so I certainly wouldn't worry about them.
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-25-2008 09:13
It seems difficult to see how LL could put this genie back in the bottle: a) the OpenSim people have been very careful not to allow submissions from anyone involved in submitting patches to the SL viewer, so they have a defense of due diligence against any claim they are infringing the GPL license of the SL viewer code b) OpenSim is based on protocol documents that LL have either published or encouraged residents to publish on the wiki (the latter will means the copyright situation is unclear). c) LL have openly encouraged activities such as OpenSim, and there is pleny of evidence on the blog and in public e-mail lists supporting this - plus, of course, there is the AWG, a group designed to develop and promote interoperable grid protocols (LL's vision in the past has been a world of third party interoperable SL grids which LL providing the intergrid infrastructure) d) any legal case against OpenSim will cause a backlash in the open source community. Not only would that loose LL some of the additional input into the client, and some credability, it could also motivate those working on OpenSim to turn their attention to alternative virtual world technologies. OpenCroquet, for example, is in some ways technically superior to SL, but has some important missing features (and is really only usable by developers in its current form) and is hampered by not having reached critical mass in terms of a developer community and by not having any publically accessible worlds. They'd welcome a mass influx of ex-OpenSim developers and world hosters. e) the education sector can get quite religious about open source and open standards - if LL were to litigate against OpenSim, they risk a backlash from the education sector which still represents a substantial proportion of SL activity. Overall, I think that such an action would have a significant risk of failure and a significant risk of losing a lot of support and community with negative publicity. Matthew It will be interesting to see what happens. It was also pretty well documented that libSL was supposedly working with LL and then the relationship changed after various disputes appeared and there was also rogue factions within libSL that LL was not happy with after the Copybot fiasco began (around Nov 2006) There was some nasty business that was pretty well documented, including internal libSL infighting, between the supposed loyal to LL side vs. the rogue elements. The bottom line is that now there are a number of grid projects that are using the technology developed by LL, arising form LL's apparent, initial trust of libSL. I think at the very least, if some down to business CEO heads up LL, assuming that happens (ha ha, we will see. I'd like to see it. ) then it seems to me the courts would be obliged to favor LL untill it has been determined what exactly did happen and who owns what. I would suspect that charges of thievery from both LL and content creators in SL, would be a heavy force. Another factor, is that it is reasonable to assume that these OpenSim projects will in no time, be full of content created by SL content creators and even if LL rolls over and plays dead, the content creators themselves will be outraged. More irony, that the Open Sim projects will themselves lose control of their own monsters. If it'a all a hobby then of course none of it matters, but if it is ever serious business, then all of this will matter. Last I checked, the courts still believe in property rights. |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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03-25-2008 09:32
I see "LL did this" and "LL did that" a couple places above.
Unless these were things sanctioned by Legal Linden, I'm not sure that the actions of other individual Lindens in the past will mean as people seem to think they will in the future, legality-wise. _____________________
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Day Oh
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2007
Posts: 1,257
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03-25-2008 09:38
Linden are just getting the ball rolling on interoperability and properly documenting the protocol ^^
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-25-2008 10:05
Linden are just getting the ball rolling on interoperability and properly documenting the protocol ^^ Interoperability="can i have yur stuffzzz? |
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Matthew Dowd
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Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
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03-25-2008 10:07
I see "LL did this" and "LL did that" a couple places above. Unless these were things sanctioned by Legal Linden, I'm not sure that the actions of other individual Lindens in the past will mean as people seem to think they will in the future, legality-wise. I'd be very surprised if this webpage didn't go via Legal Linden - http://secondlifegrid.net/programs/awg - and it would be very difficult for LL to take any action against OpenSim or OpenSim worlds (apart from perhaps trademark/logo infringment) without endangering or abandoning that programme. Matthew |
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Rebecca Proudhon
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Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-25-2008 10:22
I'd be very surprised if this webpage didn't go via Legal Linden - http://secondlifegrid.net/programs/awg - Matthew I wouldn't be surprised at all. Talk of interoperability does not mean "take all our technology and user's content and have a ball." People who invest time and money into their own grid projects, will face the same issues and will have all kinds of issues with users bringing in content stolen from others. Microsoft talks about interoperability as well, but of course that does not translate into, "heres all our intellectual property, take our entire product line, repackage it and sell it to whoever you wish. with our blessings." |
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Phoenix Psaltery
Ninja Wizard
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,599
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03-25-2008 11:15
I wouldn't be surprised at all. Talk of interoperability does not mean "take all our technology and user's content and have a ball." Well, that's the thing. OpenSim isn't based on LL code at all -- it's built from the ground up as a totally new piece of software. It's built to utilize the protocols that LL has already made public. There's really no way that I can see that LL could do anything about this, even if they wanted to. P2 _____________________
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Matthew Dowd
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Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
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03-25-2008 11:29
I wouldn't be surprised at all. Talk of interoperability does not mean "take all our technology and user's content and have a ball." But OpenSim isn't taking technology and user content, any more than OpenOffice take Microsoft technology and users content. Indeed the OpenSim developers have a strict policy to ensure that there is no inadvertant technology leakage from the opensource LL client to OpenSim (as a contributor to the LL viewer, I cannot contribute to the OpenSim source code). Although there has been some discussion on the SLDev list to see if there is something that Legal Linden might come up with the allow more interplay between those groups of developers. True - there will (as inevitable as human nature) be content theft between OpenSim grids and the SL grid (both ways), just as there is content theft within the SL grid, just as there was content theft before LibSL and opensourcing the client, just as there is and always has been theft in RL. To blame that on OpenSim and OpenSim based grids is naive. The more entrepreneurial content creators will see the OpenSim grids as new markets and import their own stuff across first! Matthew |
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Rebecca Proudhon
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Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-25-2008 11:32
Well, that's the thing. OpenSim isn't based on LL code at all -- it's built from the ground up as a totally new piece of software. It's built to utilize the protocols that LL has already made public. There's really no way that I can see that LL could do anything about this, even if they wanted to. P2 If thats really the case (which I think time will show one way or another) then the main issue will be content theft when everyone's inventory from SL appears on those grids. Certainly the Standalone Sim and avatar on my local machine is just a pure Second Life copy as are the interface tools |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-25-2008 11:57
The more entrepreneurial content creators will see the OpenSim grids as new markets and import their own stuff across first! Matthew I think the first content has already been the stolen stuff. There will be overwhemingly redundancy and overwhelming legal issues IMO, but this would depend on how LL and content creators, deals with it in the future Open Office/Star Office has a so-called 14% market share in 2004 and is twice as slow as MS Office. (according to wikipedia) Seems to me that there is a law of the universe that dictates that developers need to make a living and when you are pushing for everything to be free, then you have this built in issue. People will never have the free time to work for free thus the need to make an income. I see this as the inherent flaw here. Of course the more open you are the more you can be stolen from. |
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Lowen Raymaker
Registered User
Join date: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 185
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03-25-2008 11:58
It's amazing that these clones are even running land stores. openlifegrid.com is a shameless copy of SL. I would not expect innovation from these people.
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Atashi Yue
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 703
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03-25-2008 12:05
If thats really the case (which I think time will show one way or another) then the main issue will be content theft when everyone's inventory from SL appears on those grids. Certainly the Standalone Sim and avatar on my local machine is just a pure Second Life copy as are the interface tools If my content belongs to me, as SL has repeatedly stated, then why shouldn't I be able to take my content to other grids? |
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Atashi Yue
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 703
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03-25-2008 12:10
It's amazing that these clones are even running land stores. openlifegrid.com is a shameless copy of SL. I would not expect innovation from these people. How so? On OpenLife I can build with meshes or with 100m prims. Innovation you say? |
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Lowen Raymaker
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Join date: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 185
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03-25-2008 12:20
How so? On OpenLife I can build with meshes or with 100m prims. Innovation you say? I'm not sure that changing one digit in one line of code can really be considered innovation. |
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Atashi Yue
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 703
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03-25-2008 12:33
I'm not sure that changing one digit in one line of code can really be considered innovation. Then how come I can't do the same in SL? |
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Lowen Raymaker
Registered User
Join date: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 185
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03-25-2008 12:36
Then how come I can't do the same in SL? LL has attempted to optimize the grid so it works with as many computer setups as possible? It's called experience. |